Video commentary on open-source games

Video commentary on open-source games

Postby Julius » 06 Sep 2019, 19:49

https://youtu.be/Ax9xRCMNDso

Open for discussion :) But please keep it civil!
User avatar
Julius
Community Moderator
 
Posts: 3297
Joined: 06 Dec 2009, 14:02

Re: Video commentary on open-source games

Postby fluffrabbit » 06 Sep 2019, 20:12

Open source games are mostly shit.

Let's see some of the shitty ones! I'm already familiar with the ones on the Brit twit's list.
fluffrabbit
 
Posts: 557
Joined: 11 Apr 2019, 11:17

Re: Video commentary on open-source games

Postby Sockstah » 06 Sep 2019, 21:02

I agree with their general sentiment that most open source games are pretty terrible. What I question is if there really is a higher percentage of shitty open source games compared to proprietary games. Consider all the trash that was added to steam over the last couple years, or shovelware on the Wii and DS. Or consider how many hundreds of games retro consoles had while most people only fondly remember maybe a couple dozen. There is a load of terrible games out there and I doubt open source games have a higher percentage. Because of how few open source games in total there are and because of how the people making/into them are often ignorant of the issues with them I think the bad ones are just more visible.I mean hell, Super Tux Kart, a game I agree with them is pretty awful is often paraded around as one of the best open source has to offer.
Towards the end of the video they also say something that annoys me. They say it's fine that open source games are mostly shit. I disagree. I think we should strife to make them better.
User avatar
Sockstah
 
Posts: 16
Joined: 09 Jan 2019, 17:24

Re: Video commentary on open-source games

Postby Lyberta » 06 Sep 2019, 22:13

Deleted.
Last edited by Lyberta on 01 Oct 2021, 05:31, edited 1 time in total.
Lyberta
 
Posts: 765
Joined: 19 Jun 2013, 10:45

Re: Video commentary on open-source games

Postby Wuzzy » 12 Sep 2019, 17:39

Can I have a rough summary? Because I don't want to waste 48 precious life minutes.
User avatar
Wuzzy
 
Posts: 989
Joined: 28 May 2012, 23:13

Re: Video commentary on open-source games

Postby Julius » 12 Sep 2019, 17:42

They liked Hedgewars and otherwise in general Roguelikes, the rest is apparently "shit". But don't write angry responses before watching it ;)
User avatar
Julius
Community Moderator
 
Posts: 3297
Joined: 06 Dec 2009, 14:02

Re: Video commentary on open-source games

Postby charlie » 13 Sep 2019, 11:14

I'm just not into watching overweight potty-mouthed middle-aged men on YouTube rattle on about things they do and don't like.
Free Gamer - it's the dogz
Vexi - web UI platform
User avatar
charlie
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2131
Joined: 02 Dec 2009, 11:56
Location: Manchester, UK

Re: Video commentary on open-source games

Postby Julius » 13 Sep 2019, 17:01

Yeah, I thought it would show up here sooner or later anyways, so why not post it :)

But they do raise some valid points. I also think open source game developers should think a bit about what type of game are more suitable for FOSS development methods.
User avatar
Julius
Community Moderator
 
Posts: 3297
Joined: 06 Dec 2009, 14:02

Re: Video commentary on open-source games

Postby Jastiv » 14 Sep 2019, 00:05

As much has he probably annoys people here, I'm afraid he has some valid points. I think it has more to do with how free software games are developed rather than any quality inherent with a free software license. (He did mention that some free software games were really good, while some proprietary games sucked, but if you didn't look at the license at all, and just tried to base it one what games are the most fun, well, I can see where he is coming from.)
Part of the reason, that he goes into, is that most free software games are unremarkable clones rather than amazing games with unique gameplay. Granted, some of the clones are "good" but not necessarily better than the original games where they were cloned from. Two major things a lot of free software games lack, quality control in the form of user testing levels etc to try to make them more fun, and effective marketing.
User avatar
Jastiv
 
Posts: 285
Joined: 14 Mar 2011, 02:18
Location: Unitied States of America - East Coast

Re: Video commentary on open-source games

Postby Technopeasant » 14 Sep 2019, 17:28

For me it has always been the question as to why there have been so many more quality and well regarded freeware games than free software ones.

Stuff like Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw's early work comes to mind (I grew up playing Rob Blanc). Mind you, AGS is free software now, but the assets from such are obviously not.

For reference: http://icculus.org/~hamish/chzo/

I have always felt that for many game titles, we should be aiming more for the cathedral than the bazaar, if you get my drift. Just make a fun game, and then release it as free software.

Engines and multiplayer games just seem better suited to "open source" development than single-player games, plot-focused or otherwise. Same thing with clones, since all the various developers already have a reference for what they are working towards.
User avatar
Technopeasant
 
Posts: 176
Joined: 22 Feb 2017, 03:38

Re: Video commentary on open-source games

Postby Julius » 14 Sep 2019, 17:39

Technopeasant {l Wrote}:I have always felt that for many game titles, we should be aiming more for the cathedral than the bazaar, if you get my drift. Just make a fun game, and then release it as free software.


Except for really simple games or tiny cathedrals build in a bazaar I would disagree. It is just not feasible to create a full semi-modern game in the cathedral style without paying people to work on it. Rather I would say people need to embrace the bazaar from the start and design a game-framework that can that can be developed that way. Further more it should always allow really dedicated individuals to mod that game and come up with lets say a single player campaign with only basic scripting (this is what I meant with a tiny cathedral).
User avatar
Julius
Community Moderator
 
Posts: 3297
Joined: 06 Dec 2009, 14:02

Re: Video commentary on open-source games

Postby Technopeasant » 15 Sep 2019, 15:37

Well, I never said it would be semi-modern game though. The examples I cited, Yahtzee's adventure games, were throwbacks at the time - but they were good, and they developed a cult following. Again, my comment was specifically in reference to the fact that there seems to have been way more successful freeware or low-price indie game than free software games. If we can not even beat those, then of course we are not banging on the doors of triple-A studios.

I certainly agree that having good frameworks that are maintained bazaar style are a boon, but it just seems to me that we have in fact had exactly those to varying degrees for nearly twenty years without the games to show for it. Consider the situation with ioquake3 or the other id engines. Commercial level code-bases available to the community, which (particularly closer to the time of their initial release; id Tech 3 was being used in commercial games a mere year or two before being open sourced) were only a generation or so behind the tech being used by big name studios. Did we end up with a lot of great open source games? A few, maybe, but there still seemed to be something missing. Now we have things like Godot, and still the problem remains. There is a deeper underlying problem here, which I think is still that we are overly focused on tech over design.

I would say the mod thing has some merit though, but we first need to make a good first-party game for them to be based on. I have played innumerable Wolf4SDL mods, for example, but without Wolfenstein 3D they would never exist. I do agree however that the base game does not need to be anything too complicated or all that focused, but it does need to be balanced and well thought out. That is what we are missing.
User avatar
Technopeasant
 
Posts: 176
Joined: 22 Feb 2017, 03:38

Re: Video commentary on open-source games

Postby Jastiv » 15 Sep 2019, 16:57

Technopeasant {l Wrote}: There is a deeper underlying problem here, which I think is still that we are overly focused on tech over design.


Yes, we do focus on the tech alot. Like, developers are like "I want to use this new programing language, and this tool, and this framework." the actual game mechanics and game balance are often afterthoughts, no considered as important as things like is it written in LUA with boost or Java with Gradle.

Or things like, oh you want to design games, that isn't important unless you can write it in the latest tool.

I want to add that the best programmers who are the best with the latest technology are not necessarily the best at designing games that people actually want to play, even though this is used as a criteria of "merit" in the open source community.
User avatar
Jastiv
 
Posts: 285
Joined: 14 Mar 2011, 02:18
Location: Unitied States of America - East Coast

Re: Video commentary on open-source games

Postby Lyberta » 16 Sep 2019, 01:46

Deleted.
Last edited by Lyberta on 01 Oct 2021, 05:32, edited 1 time in total.
Lyberta
 
Posts: 765
Joined: 19 Jun 2013, 10:45

Re: Video commentary on open-source games

Postby Jastiv » 17 Sep 2019, 04:34

Most programing languages used for games have libraries you can use to extend the language, including things like C++, Java, Python etc.
The wheel does not need to be reinvented just to make a game.
User avatar
Jastiv
 
Posts: 285
Joined: 14 Mar 2011, 02:18
Location: Unitied States of America - East Coast

Re: Video commentary on open-source games

Postby Lyberta » 17 Sep 2019, 06:14

Deleted.
Last edited by Lyberta on 01 Oct 2021, 05:32, edited 1 time in total.
Lyberta
 
Posts: 765
Joined: 19 Jun 2013, 10:45

Re: Video commentary on open-source games

Postby Technopeasant » 18 Sep 2019, 03:46

Right, so we are all agreed. The computers are the problem. Without them, we would all be able to make the computer games of our dreams. ;)

Lyberta {l Wrote}:So of course everyone tries to reinvent the wheel because good wheel doesn't exist.


I just like making wheels, misshapen though they often turn out..,
User avatar
Technopeasant
 
Posts: 176
Joined: 22 Feb 2017, 03:38

Re: Video commentary on open-source games

Postby fluffrabbit » 18 Sep 2019, 03:58

I already have a good framework for making games, which I made myself. It's just like Unreal. But I'm not going to use it for my next project because I want to go lower-level. All ISO C99 and maybe some assembly, and no bloat. That's where I'm at now because the design path gets my games done faster and therefore gets me shit on faster. No thanks, I'd rather make bad games at a slower pace so that I'm prepared for the outcome every 2 years when one of them gets done rather than getting shit on every month like the folks who use Unity.
fluffrabbit
 
Posts: 557
Joined: 11 Apr 2019, 11:17

Re: Video commentary on open-source games

Postby Technopeasant » 19 Sep 2019, 02:00

Well, in terms of people shitting on bad games, remember that any ecosystem that can create good games needs to allow the bad games to exist. One can not exist without the other.
User avatar
Technopeasant
 
Posts: 176
Joined: 22 Feb 2017, 03:38

Re: Video commentary on open-source games

Postby fluffrabbit » 19 Sep 2019, 02:17

Taking the indie game ecosystem as a whole, that may be true. Neither Unity nor raw C/C++ development are ecosystems that lead to large numbers of "good" games. The "good" games come from large studios with in-house tech such as EA with Frostbite.
fluffrabbit
 
Posts: 557
Joined: 11 Apr 2019, 11:17

Re: Video commentary on open-source games

Postby dulsi » 08 Oct 2019, 19:06

I stumbled on a video response to this video. The talk about the community being a big feature of open source games I can see but I don't really agree with this video either. I'd say more but I'd rather spend time making games than trying to convince others they are worthwhile.
dulsi
 
Posts: 570
Joined: 18 Feb 2016, 15:24

Re: Video commentary on open-source games

Postby Jastiv » 10 Oct 2019, 14:41

Technopeasant {l Wrote}:Well, in terms of people shitting on bad games, remember that any ecosystem that can create good games needs to allow the bad games to exist. One can not exist without the other.

I have to agree with that. In fact, I want to encourage forking games that are bad (as well as games that are good) so they can be made better.
Actually, what we should do is think about how we can improve the free software ecosystem so that more games (and consequently more good games) come out. We can just ignore the crap ones unless they have some useful pieces to make a good game (and most of them probably do)
User avatar
Jastiv
 
Posts: 285
Joined: 14 Mar 2011, 02:18
Location: Unitied States of America - East Coast

Re: Video commentary on open-source games

Postby Technopeasant » 20 Oct 2019, 20:57

Yup, it is basically the one thousand monkeys on one thousand typewriters principle.
User avatar
Technopeasant
 
Posts: 176
Joined: 22 Feb 2017, 03:38

Re: Video commentary on open-source games

Postby Jastiv » 21 Oct 2019, 15:16

I just played some really awful games for the android phone. Ape chase is straight up terrible. You can't get anywhere and like insta die. Bendy in Nightmare Run is also pretty bad. It is so repetitive and boring. These games got a lot of promotion and marketing, but in reality are pretty bad.
I think we need to focus more on promotion and marketing.
User avatar
Jastiv
 
Posts: 285
Joined: 14 Mar 2011, 02:18
Location: Unitied States of America - East Coast

Re: Video commentary on open-source games

Postby Technopeasant » 24 Oct 2019, 04:07

Well, I can not speak for most people, but the main way I find out about new commercial games is if they appear on a distribution service such as Steam or GOG.com. There is no reason why free software games could not be distributed on GOG for example (Warsow is already on there). Would need to get past their curation policies, but it would certainly attract attention. Steam is another option, if you are willing to accept the dichotomy of using a DRM platform to promote a free software game (I do not use Steam for this reason), and would probably just be another drop in a vast ocean.
User avatar
Technopeasant
 
Posts: 176
Joined: 22 Feb 2017, 03:38

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron