Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby freemedia2018 » 24 Jul 2019, 00:45

fluffrabbit {l Wrote}:Do you program games at all?


Program? Absolutely. Games? No. I said why I came here in the introduction. To find Libre games. Also to comment on this very thread (whether I mentioned that or not.) I am still interested in both of those things. But if it weren't for politics I wouldn't even be looking for Libre games-- because I don't play them. The only reason I'm looking for them is to promote them-- and the only reason I'm doing that is political.

This is what I'm talking about. Pages upon pages of politics and very little discussion about technical solutions.


Did you read the thread title, as well as the category?

I suspect off-topic would be a better subforum, but you didn't really come here expecting technical solutions. In fact, your whole thing about technical solutions is a weird response to a political or philosophical thread-- because you clearly seem to think there are (or should be) appropriate technical solutions relevant to this thread-- but it isn't about a technical problem-- it's about a political one. I'm not a techno-utopian. I do think technology can mitigate (and also exacerbate) political problems, I do not believe that positive technology can make politics unimportant. That's a pipe dream everyone is welcome to-- I don't subscribe to it and I think it's either a bit dishonest, or alternatively a bit naive.
User avatar
freemedia2018
 
Posts: 85
Joined: 21 Jul 2019, 07:30

Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby fluffrabbit » 24 Jul 2019, 01:04

Program? Absolutely. Games? No. I said why I came here in the introduction. To find Libre games. Also to comment on this very thread (whether I mentioned that or not.) I am still interested in both of those things. But if it weren't for politics I wouldn't even be looking for Libre games-- because I don't play them. The only reason I'm looking for them is to promote them-- and the only reason I'm doing that is political.

I don't trust you. What do you get out of this, and how does it not hurt me as a microscopic proprietary game developer?

I do think technology can mitigate (and also exacerbate) political problems, I do not believe that positive technology can make politics unimportant. That's a pipe dream everyone is welcome to-- I don't subscribe to it and I think it's either a bit dishonest, or alternatively a bit naive.

Sure. But I believe that all software-related problems can be solved with technical solutions, whether or not the problems were originally political. There are low-tech political problems, but those are different. The high-tech problems are 99% just people not knowing what they're doing. Please don't create more problems.
fluffrabbit
 
Posts: 482
Joined: 11 Apr 2019, 11:17

Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby freemedia2018 » 24 Jul 2019, 01:36

fluffrabbit {l Wrote}:I don't trust you. What do you get out of this, and how does it not hurt me as a microscopic proprietary game developer?


If my plans are evil, I'm certainly not going to share them with you. Get your own evil plans, these are Mine.

Please don't create more problems.


I'll make you a deal--

I won't create more problems, if you won't pretend I'm creating any.
User avatar
freemedia2018
 
Posts: 85
Joined: 21 Jul 2019, 07:30

Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby fluffrabbit » 24 Jul 2019, 01:42

I won't create more problems, if you won't pretend I'm creating any.

Who said anything about pretending? I speculate that your evil plans involve promoting FLOSS games to strengthen your own political standing at the expense of proprietary developers. Since your end goals are likely different from mine, I can't even relate.
fluffrabbit
 
Posts: 482
Joined: 11 Apr 2019, 11:17

Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby freemedia2018 » 24 Jul 2019, 01:51

fluffrabbit {l Wrote}:I speculate that your evil plans involve promoting FLOSS games to strengthen your own political standing at the expense of proprietary developers. Since your end goals are likely different from mine, I can't even relate.


Then I guess you'll have to take comfort in the fact that between now and the point where we are both either too old or too dead to care, the likelihood that you'll run out of sheep to fleece is small indeed.

But also, proprietary developers are REALLY entitled. Like the cult of Microsoft, they believe that anything people share for free (and create for free) actually encroaches on their imaginary right to sell things people don't value. That's a very paranoid, backwards view of the world.

The monetary value of your software is what people are willing to spend on it, not what you think it should be worth. You can raise the price as high as you like. If it's too high for people to care about it, that's your own fault. You're the one that overestimated.

I don't know if you're serious, or this is all intended as a parody of the non-free software industry. But your zero-sum dichotomy between sales and sharing makes non-free devs look like the incels of capitalism. I think Perens' article on the subject is a bit lopsided and harsh, though perhaps his advice can help developers figure out what to do when their prices are set too high and they're unwilling to change-- and nobody is interested. https://perens.com/2018/04/30/attention ... ou-is-you/

The Perens Article {l Wrote}:Being a well-integrated human being makes you attractive.


Being a developer with integrity makes your company attractive. Having no integrity makes you look like Microsoft.
Last edited by freemedia2018 on 24 Jul 2019, 02:00, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
freemedia2018
 
Posts: 85
Joined: 21 Jul 2019, 07:30

Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby fluffrabbit » 24 Jul 2019, 01:59

I think I've fleeced maybe 2 sheep in my life.

I have a right to sell things that have no value just as others have a right not to buy them. As soon as I am selling something that has real value, such as a more ambitious game, then I have the right to make real money. If you disagree, well, there's a convenient place where you can shove your opinions.
fluffrabbit
 
Posts: 482
Joined: 11 Apr 2019, 11:17

Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby freemedia2018 » 24 Jul 2019, 02:03

fluffrabbit {l Wrote}:If you disagree, well, there's a convenient place where you can shove your opinions.


Yes, a debate.

But marketing works both ways in the real world. Just as you have the right to talk about how great your game is, others have the right to talk about how poor your business model is. Or is that a standard that suddenly became double over the weekend? Where shall GAFAM try to shove all their advertising?
User avatar
freemedia2018
 
Posts: 85
Joined: 21 Jul 2019, 07:30

Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby fluffrabbit » 24 Jul 2019, 02:20

GAFAM is a p. cool guy. eh makes operating systems and doesnt afraid of anything.

You think I have a poor business model? I should invite you over some time to show you how the sausage is made. If I can do it sober. Things are hard enough as is, and I love business. Don't take away what I love.
fluffrabbit
 
Posts: 482
Joined: 11 Apr 2019, 11:17

Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby freemedia2018 » 24 Jul 2019, 02:26

fluffrabbit {l Wrote}:Things are hard enough as is, and I love business. Don't take away what I love.


Suppose for the sake of argument, that I become completely and fully sympathetic to what you're saying here.

What am I to do (remind me, clarify, whatever) with the exploitation, theft, false patents, excessive police action, dangerously poor-quality software, and even deaths that have resulted from larger companies with the same model as yours?

Is it your preference that I go after them, and leave their business model out of it because the model will somehow benefit you as well?

Or is it your preference that I simply ignore everything they've done, and pretend it's ok? If, for the sake of argument-- they're really as bad as I'm making them out to be-- should I still find a place to shove my opinions, or are some things even more important than your present and even hypothetical career path? Like for example, the freedom for people to code as most people did until 1976? (Just as an example.) You've said you haven't made much money from this model I'm criticising, so we are agreed it's a hypothetical path, right?

GAFAM is a p. cool guy.


GAFAM is a threat to the United States Constitution, and The President of the United States, Congress and the Senate, as well as every man and woman (and any other gender) in the armed forces, have all sworn an oath to protect the country from such threats.
User avatar
freemedia2018
 
Posts: 85
Joined: 21 Jul 2019, 07:30

Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby fluffrabbit » 24 Jul 2019, 02:58

Or is it your preference that I simply ignore everything they've done, and pretend it's ok?

Yes.

GAFAM is a threat to the United States Constitution, and The President of the United States, Congress and the Senate, as well as every man and woman (and any other gender) in the armed forces, have all sworn an oath to protect the country from such threats.

We may lose the cyber war, but we won't lose the culture war. Software businesses are cool. They just are. Go to Russia or France if you want the flip side of that. It is horrifying what kind of tech various government institutions depend on, considering it's so dated and insecure. But this is America, and there are certain things you accept when you are a part of a culture.
fluffrabbit
 
Posts: 482
Joined: 11 Apr 2019, 11:17

Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby Jastiv » 24 Jul 2019, 04:35

I had some good vegetables for dinner, some good organic locally grown vegetables I got from my co-op. That's right, farmers make a living growing organic locally grown produce, and yes, even supporting a family. Pesticide covered GMO’s are not necessary for farmers to support a family, and if they went away I wouldn’t care. Just like I won’t miss proprietary software when it is gone. My grandmother grew her own organic vegetable garden, and although she didn’t sell it, she helped fed herself, husband and three children with all the vegetables.

But, if people start demanding source code to the games, and free cultural assets, as a condition of spending money on the games, then the only ones who will make money creating games will be free software developers, and those who develop free cultural assets. It is very simple, supply and demand. If the demand is for only free software games, that is where the money will be, and that is what developers will have to create if they want that money.
User avatar
Jastiv
 
Posts: 168
Joined: 14 Mar 2011, 02:18

Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby fluffrabbit » 24 Jul 2019, 05:04

I can buy organic produce and plant the seeds, but if I want more of it, I have to grow it myself, and that takes time. If I bought an open source game, I could throw it up on GitHub or wherever and everybody could get it for free with no effort.
fluffrabbit
 
Posts: 482
Joined: 11 Apr 2019, 11:17

Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby Jastiv » 24 Jul 2019, 05:11

Putting open source games up on GitHub or whatever won't directly cause new open source games or expansions to be made. You do realize there is a lot of free software out there that was thrown up, thinking that people are just going to come out of the wood work and work on it, downloads yes, but lots of projects don't ever get any additional developers.
So yeah, people get it for free, but that doesn't mean that bug fixes and mods will come free without any additional work or money spent by users.
User avatar
Jastiv
 
Posts: 168
Joined: 14 Mar 2011, 02:18

Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby freemedia2018 » 24 Jul 2019, 05:18

The most ridiculous thing about this, is that fluff is clearly a veteran, and these are free software 101 dilemmas.

Any answer to these questions was already formulated 20 years ago, there's nothing new here, so why are we doing this? Bryan Lunduke, I know it's you, stop joking around and show yourself.

We can do this back and forth, but we could do it just as easily from the kind of script that telemarketers use-- open source types bring these things up year after year, like it's going to be "gotcha!" for real this time. It only fools people who haven't done it long enough to know better. When they do it, it's just trolling.

Jastiv {l Wrote}:if people start demanding source code to the games, and free cultural assets, as a condition of spending money on the games, then the only ones who will make money creating games will be free software developers, and those who develop free cultural assets. It is very simple, supply and demand.


Basically, yes.
User avatar
freemedia2018
 
Posts: 85
Joined: 21 Jul 2019, 07:30

Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby fluffrabbit » 24 Jul 2019, 05:28

Honestly, this kind of talk is new to me. I've only heard these sorts of propositions in the last 3 years or so, and every time I hear it I don't have anything pleasant to say about it.
fluffrabbit
 
Posts: 482
Joined: 11 Apr 2019, 11:17

Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby freemedia2018 » 24 Jul 2019, 05:39

fluffrabbit {l Wrote}:Honestly, this kind of talk is new to me. I've only heard these sorts of propositions in the last 3 years or so, and every time I hear it I don't have anything pleasant to say about it.


There are ways to monetise free software.

Businesses change to survive either way.

People still sell buggy whips-- they're not as large a market as they used to be for obvious reasons.

A lot of the companies that produced them went on to produce car products instead of carriage products.

Charging money isn't the problem. Charging money for (the user to make) copies is. Charging money for the vendor to make copies is alright, but since the user can make copies freely, the price for copies tends towards zero.

Kickstarter for software titles works.

Kickstarter for additional features works.

Industry will always find ways to turn software into a cheaper commodity anyway-- whether it's Microsoft moving all its jobs to India, or Facebook teaching everyone and his mum how to code.

But if you're new to this, you should really find out just how low Microsoft goes. They operate like a cult, and their tactics are extremely dirty. You said something about American values. What Microsoft does is pretty Unamerican if you ask me. This is book matter, not forum thread matter. It goes on and on and on, and it has hurt the industry not for years, but decades. The people that work for them aren't happy either-- like with any cult, people are happy when they're convinced at first, and feel deeply exploited when disillusioned.
User avatar
freemedia2018
 
Posts: 85
Joined: 21 Jul 2019, 07:30

Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby fluffrabbit » 24 Jul 2019, 07:18

I do have a sense of what Microsoft's work environment is like, but the outside world does not suffer as much as they do. They're not at fault here.
fluffrabbit
 
Posts: 482
Joined: 11 Apr 2019, 11:17

Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby freemedia2018 » 24 Jul 2019, 11:07

fluffrabbit {l Wrote}:They're not at fault here.


There's an endless list of stuff they're "not at fault" about. It's ongoing. There's more all the time.

I'm talking about the company. If the rest are "just following orders" then it makes very little difference.

Nonprofits aren't supposed to be bought out like other corporations.

They aren't supposed to be, but it happens all the time. If only the problems stopped there...
User avatar
freemedia2018
 
Posts: 85
Joined: 21 Jul 2019, 07:30

Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby fluffrabbit » 24 Jul 2019, 11:25

Everyone has a price, my friend.
fluffrabbit
 
Posts: 482
Joined: 11 Apr 2019, 11:17

Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby freemedia2018 » 24 Jul 2019, 13:31

fluffrabbit {l Wrote}:Everyone has a price


Not historically. There are still people who sacrifice everything for the general good.

People who think everyone has a price, are typically advertising a lower price than people who don't think that-- whether intentionally or not.
User avatar
freemedia2018
 
Posts: 85
Joined: 21 Jul 2019, 07:30

Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby fluffrabbit » 24 Jul 2019, 13:58

Eh. Folks are less likely to pay for things (or people) they can't afford. I find nonprofits' dishonesty about capitalism more bothersome than the alternative. Google is able to snap these places up because of Google's "open source" evangelism. You see, it's lateral, right? Google isn't buying people, they're just being altruistic, as are the nonprofit people they're not buying.
fluffrabbit
 
Posts: 482
Joined: 11 Apr 2019, 11:17

Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby freemedia2018 » 24 Jul 2019, 14:35

fluffrabbit {l Wrote}:Google isn't buying people, they're just being altruistic, as are the nonprofit people they're not buying.


Google is playing the same game, rebranding exploitation as altruism. And it gets away with it more, due to being newer and as you say, the "open source" image. Apple does it too.

Microsoft is now adapting to that, and becoming more like Google and Apple in this regard. It's superficial, but many people will fall for that. Google's altruism is just as superficial.
User avatar
freemedia2018
 
Posts: 85
Joined: 21 Jul 2019, 07:30

Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby Julius » 24 Jul 2019, 17:56

Don't really want to enter in this discussion, but for non-profits (something I happen to have a lot of first hand experience with) it usually is a story of values dying because of their own success. Some non-profit starts with a lot of enthusiasm and volunteers... it becomes successful and some members realize they can (and need to) become full time employees. Over time these become the core decision makers and others leave because the natural tendency of the former to value their own jobs and the continued existence on the non-profit over the original noble goals of the non-profit. This goes a few rounds, some more idealistic founding members leave because of age etc. and in the end you have a non-profit run by people who see it as just another office job more or less.
User avatar
Julius
Community Moderator
 
Posts: 2567
Joined: 06 Dec 2009, 14:02

Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby freemedia2018 » 24 Jul 2019, 22:56

Fun, recent story about the dangers of proprietary development: https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2019/0 ... ture-work/
User avatar
freemedia2018
 
Posts: 85
Joined: 21 Jul 2019, 07:30

Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby fluffrabbit » 25 Jul 2019, 01:01

Don't really want to enter in this discussion, but for non-profits (something I happen to have a lot of first hand experience with) it usually is a story of values dying because of their own success.

I volunteered at a nonprofit for a while. The guy running it was doing it for a source of income, and it was not all that successful. It was supposedly the world's largest video streaming site devoted to a particular subject, but you know how things can be in far-left Oregon. It's not even a political thing, it's just the combination of poverty and being proud of your "cause".

I think he was being altruistic but also very pragmatic. He had a lot of "underwriters" and grants and whatnot, all the while trying to come up with things to spend money on to get more funding, but there was never enough money to pay more than one employee at a time.
fluffrabbit
 
Posts: 482
Joined: 11 Apr 2019, 11:17

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest