Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby Jastiv » 20 Jun 2019, 20:44

The problem is that FSF is a bunch of hippies that everyone spits on and Open Source is successful.

We need another movement to combat proprietary software and Open Source. I'm thinking "User Respecting Software". It doesn't have the word "free" in it. It gets straight to the point. This software will not do you harm intentionally. This means proper license and no anti-features.

I was writing up an essay a couple days ago about this exact thing. It ends up being a long multi-part document, starting with basics/ what is free software/ what is free culture, and then ending with the marketing issues with both the ideas of "free software" and "open source. Basically, the idea of appealing to ethics of helping others does not appeal to narcissistic sociopaths (that make up most of the population) (the FSF idea) while the idea of a business case to make money does not appeal to people who are just playing games for entertainment (the open source idea),
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Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby drummyfish » 26 Jun 2019, 21:16

Starting a new movement right away? Pretty ambitious. Let's just talk ideas for start :)

I don't think the problem with the FSF is they're "hippies", that may actually be the good thing. Here are issues I am seeing in free/open-source/etc movement:

  • Not combining both free SW and free culture. The FSF doesn't care about free culture, they specifically state that non-free data that aren't programs are okay and pretty regularly create non-free media (their videos and texts are often NC, ND and similar, also GFDL can be non-free in specific cases). Creative Commons don't care that much about free SW. Here at libre game forums we care about both, but only games. What's missing here is a movement that cares about the freedom and combination of both, the software (also hardware etc.) and the (other forms of) art, in general.
  • Being fine with or lacking the knowledge about the non-commercial-use-only issue. Many in the open source and free culture movement are pushing to accept NC as free/open and many don't know that NC breaks the definition of free/open. Lessig, the founder of CC himself, licenses his most important book Free Culture as NC. The FSF, as I said, regularly uses NC. We need a movement that very strictly rejects NC (and similar problematic clauses).
  • Personally I'd welcome a movement that would rejects the whole concept of the IP and would prioritize public domain and simplicity of reuse and sharing. CC and its founder support IP, just with some changes. Same with Stallman. Yes, PD can be abused, but we already have the FSF that does the "restrictive", copyright-based fight with corporations. We're missing a "peaceful" resistance movement.

I'd like to hear what else people here are missing or unhappy with about the existing movements.
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Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby fluffrabbit » 26 Jun 2019, 21:55

With any movement there are going to be people who care too much and/or take it too seriously. Both of the above posts are very well-composed and thought-out, in contrast to my writing style on forums. I think it has something to do with FGD being perceived as a pillar of purity or something. Yes, Julius, you can think of yourself as an important free culture revolutionary. I'm sure folks here would agree. I'm not sure myself but I digress.

What I'm missing is a reason to care. While I would like the flavor of a PD movement, that and the FSF/GPL approach are both free software, yes FAIF yatta yatta, but more importantly, free as in no money. I have to think about how I spend my time and what I do with my life because we do not live in a Star Trek post-scarcity world.
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Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby dulsi » 26 Jun 2019, 22:58

FGD is not a pillar of purity. There are some vocal users such as drummyfish who complain about things. But if people want to have a discussion on Mangband which has a non commercial restriction that is allowed. If you make a game with source code under GPL but you have to buy the content, that is acceptable discussion here.

I do feel there is a lot of vocal posters who push for purity which does give that pillar of purity impression. I suspect it hurts attracting people to these forums.
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Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby Julius » 26 Jun 2019, 23:34

fluffrabbit {l Wrote}:Yes, Julius, you can think of yourself as an important free culture revolutionary. I'm sure folks here would agree. I'm not sure myself but I digress.


Huh? How did I enter into this topic? But yeah, we are pretty open to less pure forms of open-source gaming, but it is true that the people who stick around (I guess for a lack of more "pure" options?) tend to distort the outward impression a bit. I personally have no ambitions to start any movement... the Free Software one is fine (with all the hippies and other issues they of course also have) :heart:
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Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby fluffrabbit » 26 Jun 2019, 23:49

The people make the community. If the hippies with their problems are the vocal ones, and around here I would say they are in the majority, that's what FGD is.

Technically, by what has been said, Doom would be a shining example. It has free code, non-free media, a FAIF alternative to the non-free media, and mainstream appeal. Jastiv could go on about it in talks, Lyberta could use it to live out revenge fantasies, etc. Doom is awesome. But it seems to me like the main interest is in the politics surrounding the games rather than the games themselves.
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Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby drummyfish » 27 Jun 2019, 00:25

dulsi {l Wrote}:There are some vocal users such as drummyfish who complain about things. But if people want to have a discussion on Mangband which has a non commercial restriction that is allowed. If you make a game with source code under GPL but you have to buy the content, that is acceptable discussion here.

...

I suspect it hurts attracting people to these forums.


Thank you for saying this, it genuinely made me realize one thing -- I know I am this kind of person, but let me try to pinpoint the reason here. It's going to be a little self-centered text, I am sorry for that :)

There are people who are purists because of their ego, because they naturally like drama, arguments and so on, and as far as I can honestly tell, I am not one of these people, quite the opposite -- I am very non-conflicting non-violence and absolute pacifism advocate. I believe in reason, not violence. The real reason for my perceived -- sometimes maybe negative -- purism, is exactly that I am missing that community of like-minded purists. A movement that would fulfill what I have mentioned above -- the opposition to IP, the strictness about freedom of all information etc. I know that when I have a place I feel at home, I am pretty tolerant in other places of the Internet -- there are Internet communities of programmers I get along with pretty well even though they're pretty far from me ideologically, and I can tolerate their decisions.

With the libre game community I felt like I have found exactly this "home", so I am naturally a bit frustrated to find people here who break what are to me the basic rules (NC licenses for assets etc.). Of course I will respect that, but there is this feeling in me that the community I could completely identify with is still missing. That is also why I find this thread interesting. A movement of purist could give a home to all the frustrated people who are now "forced" to live among non-purists, which could make them -- at least me -- feel better, satisfied, and in result perhaps behave in a way others wouldn't find so negative.
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Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby fluffrabbit » 27 Jun 2019, 00:31

Yeah, freedom and pacifism! Kill the non-purists!
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Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby drummyfish » 27 Jun 2019, 00:44

fluffrabbit {l Wrote}:Yeah, freedom and pacifism! Kill the non-purists!


If you have something objectively better, there is no need to force it, don't you think? So no killing of anyone :) Thanks to these discussions I really feel more and more inspired to writing my own essay or a manifesto. Anyway, I don't want to be stealing this thread, let's hear others as well.
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Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby Julius » 27 Jun 2019, 08:50

The thing I find really frustrating about (usually leftist) movements is the tendency of some members to develop a "holier than you" attitude that can be driven ad infinitum of smaller and smaller circles of purists of the purists. Or alternativly blowing up minor disagreements over approaches (PD vs. GPL for example). There is basically no better way to destroy an idea from within than that :(
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Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby fluffrabbit » 27 Jun 2019, 13:14

Julius {l Wrote}:The thing I find really frustrating about (usually leftist) movements is the tendency of some members to develop a "holier than you" attitude that can be driven ad infinitum of smaller and smaller circles of purists of the purists. Or alternativly blowing up minor disagreements over approaches (PD vs. GPL for example). There is basically no better way to destroy an idea from within than that :(

The difference between FGD and Tumblr is that people here are smart. The conversations may go around in circles, but I think anyone with the patience to stick around has already made up their mind on how to spend their time, myself (unfortunately) included. The challenge is in barriers to growth.

Think of it as an inertial confinement fusion reactor. Licenses with opposite polarities magnetize particulate members to spin around in circles fast enough to generate energy. That energy, if harnessed correctly, can be used as a power source.
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Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby Jastiv » 27 Jun 2019, 17:42

I don't really want to make a circular conversation. That would be pointless, like a snake chasing its tail and eating itself.
I'm thinking part of the problem might be with purism, not the idea that all software should be free software and have free cultural assets, but the idea that we should delete all our non-free games right now and only play free software ones.
At the same time, I still wish I could get back all those hours I spent playing diablo 2 when it made me miserable and do something productive instead.
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Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby Lyberta » 27 Jun 2019, 18:18

drummyfish {l Wrote}:There are people who are purists because of their ego, because they naturally like drama, arguments and so on


Or just people with mental health issues who want the pain to stop. And proprietary things are inherently painful.
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Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby fluffrabbit » 27 Jun 2019, 20:07

I think there is a masochism argument and a time-killing argument. If you want to feel pain and kill time, there are proprietary games for that. Diablo 2 is an interesting example. Yes, I suppose it's painful, but by design. All this kid-friendly free software featuring Tux the fruity furry children's mascot doing stupid shit in stupid, quaint, unbelievable environments to get meaningless points, well, it sucks. There are counter-examples, but they're a little weak and not violent enough. That's got nothing to do with FAIF, it's just cultural.
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Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby drummyfish » 27 Jun 2019, 20:29

Lyberta {l Wrote}:Or just people with mental health issues who want the pain to stop. And proprietary things are inherently painful.


Just to make it clear, I didn't mean anyone specific, not even you, Lyberta :) I get the feeling your struggle is similar to mine -- not having the community that would completely share your views and your pain. Of course, that is just my view.

------

I have started drafting some texts, not with any specific goal so far, but I am getting my ideas together:

Basically I would like to form a group of idealists. Many will argue against this -- isn't the pursuit of ideals what has historically caused the most harm to society? To this I say no! It has always only been the violent and forced pursuit of ideals that caused the pain. But it is the force -- not the goal -- which has hurt us. On the other hand, a non-violent, non-restricted pursuit of ideals, such as the effort of countless artists to seek absolute beauty, is what has made us, the mankind, grow the most.

Too much influenced by the western culture, we are led to believe that we need to fight for our ideals. That fight and violence are the only means to prevail. There is another great error in such thinking -- this is but a one way -- a short-sighted way of quick success, but a deep subsequent downfall in the long run. We would look far in the future, we would look for a slow, but stable reform. We would look far and wide and aim to benefit ourselves no more than anyone else. We wouldn't be the Che Guevaras, we would be the Ghandhis and Luther Kings. No guns, no GPLs.

The focus would be on collaborative creation, not trying to make corporations behave, as the FSF does. We'd still be friends with the FSF and other similar movements -- this is not a competition -- just our own way. Lead an example, not a fight.
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Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby fluffrabbit » 27 Jun 2019, 20:50

isn't the pursuit of ideals what has historically caused the most harm to society? To this I say no! It has always only been the violent and forced pursuit of ideals that caused the pain. But it is the force -- not the goal -- which has hurt us.

Hitler was as much a military leader as he was an idealist. After what Germany went through in the first round, he inevitably had a role to play in escalating things. While I am partially inclined to agree with you, I think history shows many perfect storms of conflicting ideals, and I would argue that regardless of who causes it, the pursuit of ideals always leads to conflict.

Lead an example, not a fight.

You can do that, but Zealots be many.

Image

This is a painting of the Visigoth king Alaric riding around looking like a badass during the decline of Rome. His people believed in one version of Christianity while the Romans believed in another. This minor difference which may seem trivial to us was reason enough to trash the city. All the while, there were negotiations to unify the two sects, which never came to fruition. Instead, Rome collapsed.

Personally, I am okay with the current regime. It's not perfect, but I do know that things could turn sour and get worse.
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Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby Lyberta » 28 Jun 2019, 04:49

drummyfish {l Wrote}:Too much influenced by the western culture, we are led to believe that we need to fight for our ideals. That fight and violence are the only means to prevail. There is another great error in such thinking -- this is but a one way -- a short-sighted way of quick success, but a deep subsequent downfall in the long run. We would look far in the future, we would look for a slow, but stable reform. We would look far and wide and aim to benefit ourselves no more than anyone else. We wouldn't be the Che Guevaras, we would be the Ghandhis and Luther Kings. No guns, no GPLs.


Link

You have also been critical of Gandhi. You have called him violent. Why?

It’s crucial to see violence which is done repeatedly to keep the things the way they are. In that sense, Gandhi was more violent than Hitler.

A lot of people will find it ridiculous to even imagine that Gandhi was more violent than Hitler? Are you serious when you say that?

Yes. Though Gandhi didn’t support killing, his actions helped the British imperialists to stay in India longer. This is something Hitler never wanted. Gandhi didn’t do anything to stop the way the British empire functioned here.
For me, that is a problem.


I'd rather see Antifa-style organization where everyone is anonymous and everyone 24/7 DDoSes GitHub, FSF and everyone else who is evil.
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Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby fluffrabbit » 28 Jun 2019, 13:00

From my view, Gandhi was a leftist radical who encouraged passive resistance. Any kind of resistance to a functional system is counter-productive, and I would like to see a world where everyone just shuts up and works as productive members of society.
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Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby drummyfish » 28 Jun 2019, 13:30

fluffrabbit {l Wrote}:I would like to see a world where everyone just shuts up and works as productive members of society.


I wouldn't want to start flame wars, but let me just say I strongly disagree with the "shut up and work" philosophy and the whole capitalist cult of productivity. I wouldn't expect this kind of argument on these forums -- when people shut up and just work, they are nothing more than robots and tools of those who control the system. Nazi Germany was a huge killing machine built of people who simply shut up and worked. So I think it is extremely important that people never shut up.
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Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby fluffrabbit » 28 Jun 2019, 14:06

Or the East India Trading Company, or Microsoft, or even the Soviet Union. We capital cultists aren't just robots; we do care about our working conditions. But rather than appealing to that, you take an ethical stance. That's not going to sway anyone.
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Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby drummyfish » 28 Jun 2019, 16:21

Okay let's move on or else this is becoming another political split.

I'd like to hear more voices here, giving some constructive criticism of the current movements, maybe highlighting some lesser known. Let's not forget the FSF, OSI and CC aren't the only ones, there are others, like e.g. Debian, who create their own definitions and goals.
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Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby Jastiv » 28 Jun 2019, 19:50

This is just a quick list somewhat based on my essay.

Definition of a Free Software/Free Culture movement
A free software and/or culture movement will have the following things.
1. Guidelines about when / if certain licenses are appropriate.
2. Reasons for Creating Free Software and/or Culture.
3. Reasons for using/ enjoying Free Software and/or Culture
3. Statement(s) about copyright and/or its utility.

Criticism of the current movements
This is a list of my criticism of current free software and/or free culture movements.

Richard Stallman and the Free Software movement
1. Ethics talk – Making money and supporting your family considered more important ethically. (by some people, not necessarily by the fsf)
2. Ethics talk – Games are for fun, not serious so they don’t need an ethics discussion.
3. Ethics – absolutist stance on ethics (ie, get rid of all your proprietary software right now even if it is worse in some practical sense.
4. Weak stance on free culture – art and culture not an ethical question.
5. Weak stance on free culture – GFDL – something the debian project considers “non-free”

Debian Project
1. Money concerns dismissed Lack of consideration about money – focusing on the non-commercial aspect of it. (remember what happened to Ian, okay, I don’t want to remind people, but basically he worked for docker and couldn’t afford to live in California.)
2. Just a project and not a “movement.
3. Non-free culture and software is put in a non free repository, which is an imperfect solution.

Eric Raymond and “Open Source”
1. Money is the the main consideration. (hence not the best argument to use for gaming)
making money and control over how money is spent are the main arguments.
2. The other argument is better software, although this is often the case, it isn’t always true.
3. Ironically Eric Raymond has just been resorting to just basically begging for money. (His actual stance is basically having money isn’t any good if you can’t buy what you want with it.)

Creative Commons
1. Non-commercial and no derivative licenses are acceptable for any works without any
real guidelines about when/if they are appropriate


FreeCulture.org
1. A definition in a wiki is not a movement.


Piracy
1. Piracy does not directly create new culture or software.
2. People frequently use the money argument to declare piracy unethical. (What, you want creators and their families to starve?)
3. Piracy brings more attention to proprietary software and non-free culture, therefore getting it more marketing.

Putting all your cultural works in the public domain
1. Merely licensing your works a certain way, whether it is public domain or some form of copyleft and/or attribution is not a movement.
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Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby drummyfish » 28 Jun 2019, 20:15

Jastiv {l Wrote}:1. Ethics talk – Making money and supporting your family considered more important ethically. (by some people, not necessarily by the fsf)
2. Ethics talk – Games are for fun, not serious so they don’t need an ethics discussion.


Are these your opinions? or Stallman's? Or the FSF's? It's not clear from the writing. I'd have objections to these.
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Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby Julius » 28 Jun 2019, 22:13

"Copyleft" as an idea is probably more than just a way of licensing and also broader then what the FSF stands for.

Then there is also the open hardware people that mix a hacking ethos with the free software idea I guess.
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Re: Another movement - User Respecting Software?

Postby Lyberta » 28 Jun 2019, 22:57

Jastiv {l Wrote}:2. People frequently use the money argument to declare piracy unethical. (What, you want creators and their families to starve?)


Yes, Yes, I really want. I would also download a car if I could. I only obey the government when it forces me to.
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