Forest Track

[SvenAndreasBelting]

@Alayan: Thank you for your intensive testing. It helps me a lot to improve the track.

In the non-village path in S, it's possible to go under the barrier in the second curve. That's very annoying, as you need to rescue the kart. I'd suggest to change the barriers to make sure you can't go under them. Also in that same curve, maybe smooth a bit the road, because once I tried to skid and my kart literally flew over the barrier.

I changed the first point, now you can't go under the barrier any more. I have worked on the second point but it needs to be tested.

Here is the latest WIP version of the track. (the alternative route over the hill is not completed yet and won't be counted). https://www.dropbox.com/s/1kzp0h73643y8 ... t.zip?dl=0

I like a lot the trees moving with the wind. It makes things lively. However, I noticed a number of trees which are not in full 3D but are made of two planes in X. From far and from certain angle, it may look ok, but from closer approach, the difference is very clear. 3D tree are much betters.

Where exactly did you see these trees? I can't make all the trees in full 3D, they're too many. (At the moment I have zirka 1000 in full 3D 6000 as an X and 6000 in 2D). I have tried to choose the positions so you shouldn't notice they aren't in 3D.

I drove to the monastery on the hill. It's nice, but we can see the walls behind the windows.

I fixed that.

It's also unsettling that one can drive through house walls.

I have remarked this as well and fixed it.

A small issue with the water : it doesn't splash, and you can literally drive in the bed of the river (it should auto-rescue). [...] I suggest improving a bit the look of the cows and animating them a bit (maybe the head going down as if to eat and back up ?), it will make things more lively.

Yes I will do both.

I suggest putting a river under the big bridge.

Good idea. I just wonder where the river goes afterwords...
Maybe I make a lake.

Finally there is one thing which is ugly as hell : the grass. It's in 2D, the texture itself is low-res ; and it really doesn't look good. I strongly suggest to replace it. Maybe something other than grass in places where there are a lot of tree ; and better-looking grass (with some 3D models) in other places. I see you've put a bit of better grass in some places, I really wish you can change it in more.

You're right, I also dont like the grass as forest ground. On other places I like the grass texture but it would be nicer with more 3D grass.

@SvenAndreasBelting: For water I would suggest you watch this tutorial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CR_M_oyNPk&index=11&list=PLhvaM7uJr1PADEdcS3MGl7YZFFkWMJnKe (it's in German)

Thank you for the tip. But I know about this video. I have shown him the skills to do that video

you could also include some birds flying around.

Nice idea.

[Alayan]

I notice you also put a track preview picture. Good. But for a "black forest" track, wouldn't it make more sense to feature a forest section of the track ?

And well done for all the fixes.

Various notes :

- I'd rather put the new nitros in the upper road orthogonally to the road. The ability to take to at once makes it too easy to get a lot. Or maybe reduces a bit what's in the dead tree, because two big cans give as much nitro as 6 small cans. This means someone going first on this path can grab 8 small cans worth of nitro.
- The monastery has no doors.
- I can't test it exactly given it's not finished, but it seems to me that the monastery road may take slightly too much time compared to the lower road.
- What's that weird white thing on the first bridge ? I could only think of snow, but it doesn't fit at all, and it hampers driving.
- I can't seem to go into the air in the curve you smoothed, the fix looks good.
- You have made it more easy to drive over the railtrack. It makes the portions with the nitros easier to get and a real alternative. Though 7 small cans worth of nitro may be a bit much here too ? (Though I shall note that it's only accessible from the lower path)
- I see you improved a lot the fields. Nice ! The tractor seems maybe a bit big and weird on that small and hilly field though. Maybe downscaling it slightly ?
- The flowers and 3D grass help a lot in prairie places. I'm glad you agree about the forest ground and will do something to it.
- [Edit : I think I have seen a part where you tried a new forest ground. Imo, it's too clear. A forest ground should be darker I think]
- [Edit : The arrows in reverse are not reverted as they should]

For the X trees, you seem to have forgotten about driving in reverse.

I could only notice those which are too visible in normal race :




But in reverse, there are also those, much more obvious :





(This last screenshot also features on the right the grass I dislike. The one with a "rough" effect giving some 3D seems to have the same texture but looks better)

Among the 3D trees, those with the orange/red big round leafs have branches and leafs who seem slightly too geometrical imho.

Driving in reverse and going off track in a curve (in a way an overspeeding player might), I saw this :



And coming back, this :



(Also, have you seen my last post in the previous page ?)

[Mr.XX99]

I just turned up the graphics settings for this track, the performance was not so good (thanks to my weak PC), but WOW, this track looks more amazing than I had imagined and the water looks great (in most places)

Here is my feedback for the latest version:

- I had a problem when unzipping the track because there is a water.spm and a WATER.spm in there, there was a warning that this file already exists and if I want to replace it. so I only was able to keep one of this.
This is maybe the reason for the bad looking water I found (see screenshots)

- I made many screenshots showing some things I noticed. can be found there: https://imgur.com/a/6jL0C (there is a short description under every picture)

- I found a bug when driving in reverse: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RfJ7Re ... sp=sharing
when you drive along the track the kart-canon takes you to the upper path even when you're driving left of the ramp

- And also in reverse the tunnel after the ramp could maybe also be marked with a sign, that you should not drive in (like I suggested for the other tunnel, see screenshots)

- and some things already noticed by Alayan

- when driving through the canyon the lap still does not count, but I think you know that

[Alayan]

I just turned up the graphics settings for this track, the performance was not so good (thanks to my weak PC), but WOW, this track looks more amazing than I had imagined and the water looks great (in most places)

I did the same yesterday, and yes, with graphics to the max it's beautiful even if I get only 15 FPS. There are 260K poly in view in places. That's not more than Candela City though, so it shouldn't be too much.

In one of your screenshots, you point at the facts that there are pointy peaks. What bothers me more when looking there is the emptiness. I'd prefer to have my view obscured by trees than seeing far away a vast empty area and that the forest is much smaller than it seems when we are in it.

That's true in some other places. We can feel that the place has bounds, rather than the feeling of it being in a small part of an infinite world.



Here, it would look better without the left empty peak at all and with the right one smoothed and with some pretend low-poly trees.

It would be good too if the anti-OOB invisible walls were matched with something to make them more "natural".

In the place shown by the picture above, a simple field (to the left of the kart) with a barrier on the railroad side may do it well.

The right side of the road close to the start is also very empty :



PS. : egg hunt will be amazing on this track.

[Mr.XX99]

fount out what the white thing on the first bridge is

[Alayan]

Indeed ! I got there and I see it clapping. However, in the version I got, there is another white thing to the left of it (from the pov of your screenshot). Maybe it has been updated between your download of the track and mine. (EDIT : seems it hasn't changed though. Strange)

[SvenAndreasBelting]

- The monastery has no doors.
- I can't test it exactly given it's not finished, but it seems to me that the monastery road may take slightly too much time compared to the lower road.

To the doors: yes I will do it.
To the monastery road: what a shame, you're right. Especially while driving over the hill is more difficult.
Maybe it will be equalized if I put some nitros on the road.

- What's that weird white thing on the first bridge ? I could only think of snow, but it doesn't fit at all, and it hampers driving.

It doesn't belong to the track, I just forgot to delete it.

The tractor seems maybe a bit big and weird on that small and hilly field though. Maybe downscaling it slightly ?

Yes this looks better. Good idea.

(Also, have you seen my last post in the previous page ?)

Yes I've seen it. I have worked on it and it seems to be fixed.

I just turned up the graphics settings for this track, the performance was not so good (thanks to my weak PC), but WOW, this track looks more amazing than I had imagined and the water looks great (in most places)

Thanks

- I had a problem when unzipping the track because there is a water.spm and a WATER.spm in there, there was a warning that this file already exists and if I want to replace it. so I only was able to keep one of this.
This is maybe the reason for the bad looking water I found (see screenshots)

- I made many screenshots showing some things I noticed. can be found there: https://imgur.com/a/6jL0C (there is a short description under every picture)

Thanks for all these important informations.

- And also in reverse the tunnel after the ramp could maybe also be marked with a sign, that you should not drive in (like I suggested for the other tunnel, see screenshots)

Said and done

- when driving through the canyon the lap still does not count, but I think you know that

I think you didn't use the latest version of the track. In the latest version the canyon doesn't
exist any more.

In one of your screenshots, you point at the facts that there are pointy peaks. What bothers me more when looking there is the emptiness. I'd prefer to have my view obscured by trees than seeing far away a vast empty area and that the forest is much smaller than it seems when we are in it.

OK I will try.

PS. : egg hunt will be amazing on this track.

You mean it? I think the track is far too big.

[Alayan]

To the monastery road: what a shame, you're right. Especially while driving over the hill is more difficult.
Maybe it will be equalized if I put some nitros on the road.

Nitro may help to balance, but they are not everything. Maybe a few small cans on the monastery road and removing the three cans close to each other on the lower road (they are too easy to get together). What can probably be redone is the way the monastery road descends towards the finish line. By making it more direct, you can probably improve the time it takes to drive it by 2 seconds, though I'm not sure if it will be enough by itself.

Just driving on grass over the hill to the other side of the monastery was faster for me IIRC, which is another issue.

- And also in reverse the tunnel after the ramp could maybe also be marked with a sign, that you should not drive in (like I suggested for the other tunnel, see screenshots)

Said and done

screenshot.jpg

How the train is supposed to pass though ?

Also, I think I forgot to mention it, but I didn't see the train in the second version you shared. Which is a shame, as I found it was done excellently.

PS. : egg hunt will be amazing on this track.

You mean it? I think the track is far too big.

Well, I'd say that part of the fun. An easy egg hunt were everything is easy to find is not that fun. Though I'd admit that if you lack one, searching across the whole track to find it may become tedious. Not worse than volcano island which currently has an egg hunt, though.

[QwertyChouskie]

You may consider using the grass textures from https://github.com/supertuxkart/stk-cod ... -350553974

[Alayan]

Have you found the time to progress toward the track's finishing ?

[SvenAndreasBelting]

Have you found the time to progress toward the track's finishing ?

Well I'm making good progress. But there's still a lot of work to do: improve the cows, finish the farmhouse, etc.
My to-do list is waiting

I think I will upload the latest version of the track this week. So you can give me last feedback before I submit the track as add-on.

Also, I think I forgot to mention it, but I didn't see the train in the second version you shared. Which is a shame, as I found it was done excellently.

Oh sorry I have converted the model into a library node and forgot to enclose it. (Next version I will enclose it.)


in an other topic Alayan has written: "the length [of forest track] is perfectly acceptable in SuperTux, but the 150s it takes in novice (I tested, racing without skidding) are too much. [...] Some accelerators only for lower difficulties would nicely solve the issue."

I like this idea very much. Is that possible? How can I do it? Maybe with "visible if..."?

[Arthur]

There's a reason why lower difficulties have lower speed, so "working around" that is probably not a good idea - suddenly easy becomes harder than normal. Better to let people choose intermediate if they feel like they're up to the challenge. If a track is too long, it is most likely better to make it shorter, though I appreciate that it might be too much work in this case so late in the process.

Anyway if you still want to do it, you can set the road texture to be a zipper with a lower top speed than the default for zippers.

[Mr.XX99]

There's a reason why lower difficulties have lower speed, so "working around" that is probably not a good idea - suddenly easy becomes harder than normal. Better to let people choose intermediate if they feel like they're up to the challenge..

I think that zippers, if placed on a straight part of a track, don't make it much more difficult.
But I (personally) don't have a problem with the tracks length in any difficulty

[Alayan]

There are several places in the track which are straight enough so that a booster wouldn't really make things difficult (having a less powerful booster is also an option as you noted). There is currently no way to achieve difficulty-specific objects afaik ; I opened a request some weeks ago here : https://github.com/supertuxkart/stk-code/issues/3162 - but it was rejected because I'm not a track-maker myself.

If it was just my decision, I'd up slightly the speeds for novice and intermediate. Currently, they are 15 and 20 (Expert : 23 ; SuperTux : 25), I'd have them at 18 and 21. This would not make them significantly harder (except that weird blackhill mansion 180, you can take 100% of the game's curves at 21 of speed without skidding), but would make them less boring (especially novice ; intermediate is rather OK). Then, if needed, the AI can be made more forgiving - the novice player won't mind if he crashes once or twice more in a 3-laps race if he can still beat the AI (and the overall race time won't increase)

Having Novice at 72% of SuperTux's speed rather than 60% would make that sort of balancing (and other balancing like some jumps) much easier.

[QwertyChouskie]

I agree, speeding up Novice a bit overall would make sense.

[deve]

I think that novice/imdermediate is ok for android. And tbh. I think that STK is already quite fast. If you want to make it more challenging, then I think that it's better to add more events during the race instead. For example animals that are slowly moving on the road, water/oil/whatever that appears in random places on the road, a tunnel/rail crossing that is sometimes closed and you have to run different way etc... And I also think that novice difficulty should be playable for children.

[Alayan]

My point is that it's too difficult if/when the player is unable to beat the AI, not when he crashes a few times per race (this will happen to novice players, period). So if a slight speed increase to the lower difficulties (still keeping them significantly slower than the higher ones) tends to reduce the race time (crashes included) and to not make it harder to beat the AI (dumb it down slightly more if needed), what's the issue ?

Would a speed of 18 instead of 15 be so great that say a 5yo child (no point in tweaking the game for 3-4yo imho) would be unable to process what is going on with the curves fast enough ? Also, tbh, except small children who are often patient with games, I have a hard time to see who would not be terribly bored playing on novice in several tracks (especially Volcano Island), independently of their skill level. An issue we have is that we don't have hard data to base this discussion on : it's educated guess against educated guess, because STK doesn't collect the stats which would allow us to know how the game is played in reality.

As for android, I've not played this version. Though my guess would be that the deficient controls make it harder than normal (buttons on a phone screen are much less practical than a keyboard or game controller ; a smartphone is a subpar platform for complex games and a look at the average mobile game vs the average PC game confirms this). And so indeed, if it is harder because of control difficulties, the speeds may seem to be higher on a "fastness scale".

To come back to the main topic : I don't want to have this forest track rejected because, being very nice and varied, it takes 2m30s to complete in novice (probably more 3m if you often do mistakes). If the time it takes to complete in novice is considered an issue, I'm going to think about ways around that. Then, if the decision is just "it doesn't matter, novice is already slow on all tracks, the rate at which novel things appear on this one isn't worse than in the others", and the track is included while taking 2m30s to complete in novice, I'm fine with it.

[0zone0ne]

It would make the lives of track designers 1000x easier, in terms of balancing, pacing and testing, if there was only one speed level, and the difficulty settings only affected AI behaviour. I realise that probably isn't going to happen but just putting that out there

[sinisa3games]

What is this!!!?????

[SvenAndreasBelting]

Hi guys, this is the latest (and hopefully last)
test version of my track.

Track and library nodes:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lee8wnej2x0zu ... t.zip?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mzagaw1cuj121 ... s.zip?dl=0

At this moment I would name the track “Woodland wanderings“, other suggestions are welcome.

The starting gate isn‘t finished yet. I would love to hear your ideas. Especially if I should keep the finishing line as it is.


You don‘t need to bother about the following things, I‘m going to take care of them:


1. I‘m going to create a driveline for the way through the house, so you will be respawned inside the house.

2. I‘m going to improve the roof and its texture.

3. I‘m going to improve the jump from the house

4. In some places I have to improve the forest ground texture.

5. I‘m going to improve the animation of the railway barrier.

6. The cows also have to be improved (this point I‘m not so fond of).

7. I will do the “license.txt“, that will take some time.


I‘m doing my best to release the track within the next two months. But I will keep developing it further on.



@Alayan I won‘t have the time to place easter eggs in the track before releasing the first version.
If you want to you can go for it (I would send you the blend file).

What is this!!!?????

Just unfinished.

[Alayan]

Some quick feedback :

A. : I like the way you did the surrounding forested hills. Their shape is still too "spiky" imo (a more rounded shape would be more natural), but the texturing is a smart way to get a good-enough look without sending the polycount through the roof.
B. : Nice that you improved the forest ground and several grass patches. Much nicer. I also see you corrected issues noted previously, great.
C. : having the music change to what I'll call the "gran paradiso island music" when going in front of the house feels weird. I'm not a fan of the green valley music, but I don't feel this other music match more and the transition was surprising. I guess it was supposed to be for the inside of the house, I don't know if you can tweak it to only apply there.
D1. : The way you go over the stairs in the house is extremely weird. And I don't see how you can make it not weird while keeping stairs.
D2. : there is an invisible wall if you go to the right at the door just before the final jump out of the house. Either make it impossible to go their by changing the booster's shape, or change it.
D3. : I like a lot the movable chairs and table.
D4 .: While the upper part of the house is nice when just looking at things, in addition to the stairs issue, the road going there seems to just be a weird gimmick as far as racing is concerned. Even the lower part of the house is not really usable outside of time-trials, it's very easy to go wrong and even if you do it very well the nitro only compensate the time lost by the longer path and the slowing to take the curves. Do NOT add drivelines here : with drivelines, the AI would try to go here, and it would be straight-up chaos. If even for an experimented player, it's hard to get right (I've been able to do it, but if I had to do that part 5 times, I'd either have to slowdown or would collide into things at least once or twice and lose a lot of time), it will be impossible for the AI : either it will bump into things, or it will slowdown to a very small speed to get through the doors - with the risk of another AI going behind colliding it. (EDIT : I forgot about the "mark as invisible for AIs" thing, which I guess you may use. Did you use it for the monastery road ? Why ?)
E. : While I understand why you have put invisible walls on the slope in front of the house (to avoid a huge shortcut in reverse mode, and potentially even maybe in normal direction), it's possible to accidentally fall, and being blocked on this, without the ability to go up (too strong slope) or down (invisible wall), with only the possibilities of calling rescue or driving to the end of the wall, is rather frustrating.
F. : The second railway barrier (coming in the normal direction) is weird. It doesn't seem to work, unlike the first ; and in addition it's a "road to nowhere" : the passage over the railtrack looks like some kind of road, but instead of leading to one (even blocked), it leads to a dull sea of grass.
G. : Great improvements to the monastery and to the monastery road !
H. : A few more small plants below the trees at some points would be appreciable, though not required.
I. : Not a fan of the railway barrier using the explosion effect on the player's kart. Why not just blocking it ? If really required, at least not such a strong explosion.
J. : You have made the train slower ? It's extremely easy to outrun with some nitro. Ideally, its speed would change depending on the global max speed of the race (the one depending on difficulty). Is there no way to achieve that ? I'd prefer it faster.
K. : The railway barrier and the train don't seem correctly coordinated. I have seen the barrier be closed for long and opening just when the train approaches !
L. : Considering it's rather easy to go in the railway tunnel, the train disappearing so soon inside is weird - usually, animations disappearance are done at places where the player can't notice them.
M. : The border of the road at several places has a transition to the old grass instead of the new forest ground. There are spots with the opposite issue.
N. : I don't know if there is an option for this currently, but it would be great if in reverse, the train traveled in the opposite direction - that is, the same direction as the player. Maybe having two trains, each being marked as "reverse only" or "normal direction only" ?
O. : Is it normal to hear the train sound after the start, near the bridge ? I'd expect more a waterfall sound there. Or is just that waterfall sound weird ? Considering the red dot visible on the bridge, my guess would be that your 0, 0, 0 point is under that bridge and that you added a train here by error.
P. : The spawn point of the train is such that going in reverse, it's possible to see the train appear suddenly. Could the spawnpoint be behind the invisible wall ? Would the train be able to go through it ?
Q. : The birds are great.
R. : The start of the monastery road is too easy to miss in reverse. Because of the slope, and with the default camera angle, the ground of the road's entry point is barely visible. By the time you notice it, it's too late to choose to go through it.
S. : Going straight over the hill rather than going around the monastery is at least not slower, maybe slightly faster.

About the name : I quite liked the "black forest" name, honestly.Maybe something better, and more specific, can be found, but I don't find Woodland wanderings better (and I think track names should stick to describe the place/road : "wanderings" describe an action - this would rather be an appropriate name for a video showing wandering in a "woodland" track, imho).

[Ludsky]

This Track is so WONDERFUL ! I think, she can replace "Green Valley" for 0.9.4

I have just 2 bug, with new road, on "Supertux Mode", some karts taken the wooden pole/post or race on the grass

Exemple with Suzanne :



For the second bug, You can see on the picture, on the map : (Normally) The kart Kiki is the first but she have lost one laps without any reason. Same for me, when i have play one time, i have lost one lap without any reason.
But for Kiki, i have see, she's taken the wooden post and she bounced backand in height

Before i haven't there 2 bugs

[Alayan]

For the first bug, the AI pathing has some significant bugs, so as long as the drivelines match the driveable road, it's an AI issue, not a track issue. Keep the drivelines matching the real road, having custom "AI fixes" in the driveline is very bad practice.

For the second bug, it's not really a track bug either, at least for kiki : checklines only have a certain height, and when the buggy physics throw you at a big height on collision, it's possible to miss a checkline by jumping over it. This is an issue which can happen on several official tracks. As for how you lost one lap, you probably missed a checkline too, but if you didn't fly like kiki, then it may be a track bug with a checkline not going far enough on the sides.

[Mr.XX99]

First, the track looks even more amazing and I really enjoy playing it

Here are some things I noticed (that weren't already mentioned):

I made some pictures again:
https://imgur.com/a/q6fNE35

And there are "rescue issues":
when you drive into the tunnel and hit rescue you are placed in front of it and have to drive the whole tunnel again.
The same happens when you drive in reverse and you jump up the ramp at the train tracks, even if you drove to the rocks after the jump (which is a wide part), if you reset you're placed again in front of the ramp
you loose much time with these

And there was again an extracting issue because of the files "bush.png" and "Bush.png". I can't keep both because they are seen as like the same filename (does Linux have no problem with this?)

[QwertyChouskie]

Linux filenames are case-sensitive, though this definitely needs to be fixed.