More bad characters

More bad characters

Postby woompa loompa » 12 Jul 2016, 16:20

Looking at here the only adversary in the whole game is Nolok. The storyline is not very articulate, it's basically "everybody against Nolok". Would be nice to have more "bad characters" and possibly a deeper story.
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Re: More bad characters

Postby Auria » 13 Jul 2016, 00:12

We could create a few baddies, but STK actually does not actually intend to develop any deep plot : we are first and foremost and arcade racing game, and it's pretty difficult and unecessary to try to tell stories in such kinds of games IMO - other types of games are much better suited to telling stories. The focus of STK is racing
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Re: More bad characters

Postby GeekPenguinBR » 13 Jul 2016, 05:55

woompa loompa {l Wrote}:Looking at here the only adversary in the whole game is Nolok. The storyline is not very articulate, it's basically "everybody against Nolok". Would be nice to have more "bad characters" and possibly a deeper story.


I agree with you, not only about bad guys, but characters in general, as well, names, companies and everything that makes the track more interesting to play. I'm in favor of freedom for contributors who try to help this project, because the number of characters and fictional brands available on STK universe is very limited. Take a look at my reply to your comment on my topic 1750.

It's clear that nobody will download a game with 500 MB to run on empty tracks with no attractive, like I said, a lot of tracks with exceptional drivelines, but only two trees and a few stones. That's why people pay more than $100 for some games with beautiful graphics. Meanwhile, until not many years ago (before samuncle started making tracks with the new engine Antartica), many critics were used to say on Youtube "Supertuxkart is a cheap M@rio clone. This game is awful and has poor graphics". I dare some of them say the same, now, looking at the main tracks (those ones with many objects, wonderful lights,etc.) or any track made using the best games as a benchmark.

Anyway, my opinion doesn't represents the official opinion of the developers. They are free to aim the project to be a permanent developing game loved among a few programmers who share it by mail or an attractive game which don't loses in fun and graphics for any commercial game made by the bigger companies and, for this reason, it's loved by ten thousand fans all over the world, which became donators too ;) . I respect their goals, but I prefer tracks with both: exciting plan and stunning graphics. The game allows this.
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Re: More bad characters

Postby tux_peng » 13 Jul 2016, 18:25

Think about the game STK took inspiration for the story mode from. Diddykong.racing didn't have a very deep story either.

I agree that some of the tracks do feel kinda empty. There are some old tracks like mystic island that would work great in the new engine & others like.canyon and Rudy's icetrack had potential; but I don't know if the original authors are still around or if the *.blend file is available.
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Re: More bad characters

Postby GeekPenguinBR » 13 Jul 2016, 21:16

tux_peng {l Wrote}:Think about the game STK took inspiration for the story mode from. Diddykong.racing didn't have a very deep story either.

Don't forget Crash Team Racing, the main inspiration for STK, from my point of view. However, Diddykong is from 1997 and CTR is from 1999. Both looked like STK 0.6 (actually, the contrary). We are in 2016 playing STK 0.9.2, that has a nice engine which allows track makers to reach a upper level in graphics. I really like arcade games with simple graphics, but STK reached another level when Antartica became the engine and dynamic light, shadows, fog as well textures in 1024 became the standard. Makes no sense to recede graphically and I think this is not being questioned. The question is: how graphically complex the tracks must be: full of objects or simple and focused on racing above all?.

Let me clarify: It's obvious that every track must have a story and, for story, I mean a theme, with defined - as clear as possible - visual style which may group objects, colors, sounds and songs capable to tell a story for themselves while the gamer drives around. I told you the real history behind the story present on my 1750 just as cultural complement, but this information is not required to understand the theme of my new project and like it. I don't expect a foreigner or even a Brazilian will look at my track and may say, "Well, this is an obvious track placed in some Brazilian baroque town by 1700s when a gold rush happened. It's clear this small village was founded by a French admiral and pirates came later to take the gold bars from there". The track has it's own story - a small village with baroque architecture somewhere where Portuguese is spoken. There's a port and some pirates too. Nice. The gamers will understand the theme and run fast. They will care less about the story, but they will enjoy a lot the graphics with a cultural coherence. The theme is clear: small town with a port located in paradise-like landscape centuries ago. There are pirates too; maybe, some treasure. It's all. Nobody asks the developers to include scrolling texts telling the the cultural details of the historical background in every track. We are not making games with screenplays like movies neither RPG.

No one must be obligated to tell a story based on the world real history, but nobody should forbid the authors to tell a story through architecture, objects, costumes and songs. Actually, this already exists in STK. Candela City does this, Paradiso Island also and Cocoa Temple, too. You can realize you are racing in Paris, in Princess Juliana Island and Mexico or somewhere in Central America where Aztecs invented the chocolate. XR 591 is perfectly understandable as a track somewhere out of the Earth while Bovine Banyard is a clear rural area. So, why not to explore all the potential of antartica, hi-resolution textures and strong graphic cards to show a track with stunning graphics including many objects and eventual characters? So, I'm in favor of the freedom for authors of tracks, but with common sense. Some few additional characters and textures in the game will not make it worthless to download. Not all authors will include their own characters and textures. Anyway, there's always the freedom to hide complex tracks with stunning graphics on the addons site while you include empty tracks on the main game :lol: . That's why I'm for thematic packages instead a list of obligatory tracks (except for the history mode, for while).

tux_peng {l Wrote}:I agree that some of the tracks do feel kinda empty. There are some old tracks like mystic island that would work great in the new engine & others like.canyon and Rudy's icetrack had potential; but I don't know if the original authors are still around or if the *.blend file is available.

Except for Icetrack, the rest are still available in Blender files. I have them too.
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Re: More bad characters

Postby MTres19 » 13 Jul 2016, 22:08

NOTICE: This is purely my opinion and does not represent the opinions, express or implied, of the SuperTuxKart development team. However, it's what I've understood from reading the Style Guidelines, Universe, and Global Universe pages.

Of course tracks should have themes, and perhaps for many artists a theme starts with a story. I don't think anyone is arguing that. But it's difficult for a racing game as a whole to tell a story. Mario Kart as a whole doesn't tell any story, and people love it. The story does follow a theme, though, which it borrows from Super Mario. SuperTuxKart doesn't have anything to borrow a theme from (As far as I know, that is. Could a theme be borrowed from SuperTux?) so there's Story Mode to give some sort of explanation for the characters.

The characters, if used properly, can help bring a track to life, and tie the game together, but serve no other purpose. Nolok will always live at Fort Magma, so that ties an otherwise random track into the theme of the game. But it does NOT need to tie into the story because, as far as I'm concerned, there is no story outside of Story Mode.

So I say sure, create more bad characters if you want, but it won't impact much because there's nothing to impact. The story is only loosely connected to the theme, and the tracks are only loosely connected to the theme through characters.

EDIT: The Ice track blend seems to be available here
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Re: More bad characters

Postby woompa loompa » 13 Jul 2016, 22:55

@MTres19: the game doesn't need to have a deep plot. Just a series of several bad characters (bosses) to fight one after the other and with varying difficulty, before defeating Nolok and freeing GNU.
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Re: More bad characters

Postby 0zone0ne » 13 Jul 2016, 23:24

Having boss challenges would work even better if each of the sections in the overworld (the beach area, desert area, snowy (?) area, etc) were made more separate and distinct, possibly different maps, and each of these sections contained a boss challenge. This is how it works in Crash racing games and I think Diddy Kong Racing (although I've never played it). I suppose for this system to work properly, there would need to be an equal number of tracks per environment (which currently isn't the case), otherwise the boss challenges wouldn't be spaced out evenly.
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Re: More bad characters

Postby MTres19 » 14 Jul 2016, 01:26

woompa loompa {l Wrote}:@MTres19: the game doesn't need to have a deep plot. Just a series of several bad characters (bosses) to fight one after the other and with varying difficulty, before defeating Nolok and freeing GNU.


0zone0ne {l Wrote}:Having boss challenges would work even better if each of the sections in the overworld (the beach area, desert area, snowy (?) area, etc) were made more separate and distinct, possibly different maps, and each of these sections contained a boss challenge. This is how it works in Crash racing games and I think Diddy Kong Racing (although I've never played it). I suppose for this system to work properly, there would need to be an equal number of tracks per environment (which currently isn't the case), otherwise the boss challenges wouldn't be spaced out evenly.


@woompa loompa Oh, okay, I thought you meant a more complex story.

That's an interesting idea. It probably wouldn't be too hard to rig something up with cannons (The only track that uses them right now is Luna , and that's only available in Artist Debug Mode.) The hard part would be bosses. That would probably take real programming, not just scripting and modeling.
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Re: More bad characters

Postby 0zone0ne » 14 Jul 2016, 03:33

MTres19 {l Wrote}:The hard part would be bosses. That would probably take real programming, not just scripting and modeling.

I don't see how. Surely boss challenges would be just like normal races, but with only one AI kart. That one kart would need a more difficult AI than normal karts, but this might not be hard to make either, as the AI (as far as I know) has "artificial stupidity" of sorts that could surely be reduced or removed for bosses.
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Re: More bad characters

Postby woompa loompa » 14 Jul 2016, 07:33

The hard part would be bosses. That would probably take real programming, not just scripting and modeling.


How much of STK is "real programming" and how much of it is "just scripting and modeling"?
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Re: More bad characters

Postby woompa loompa » 14 Jul 2016, 07:35

Surely boss challenges would be just like normal races, but with only one AI kart.


And in a special, unique track as well!
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Re: More bad characters

Postby woompa loompa » 14 Jul 2016, 08:43

I don't know if the original authors are still around or if the *.blend file is available.


Does this mean that not all .blend files are available? Does this mean that STK uses non-free assets (karts, tracks, 3D models)?
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Re: More bad characters

Postby woompa loompa » 14 Jul 2016, 08:49

0zone0ne {l Wrote}:Having boss challenges would work even better if each of the sections in the overworld (the beach area, desert area, snowy (?) area, etc) were made more separate and distinct, possibly different maps, and each of these sections contained a boss challenge.


Maybe not even different maps, just one big map that gets larger and larger, with inaccessible zones that open up after you beat a boss.

0zone0ne {l Wrote}:I suppose for this system to work properly, there would need to be an equal number of tracks per environment (which currently isn't the case), otherwise the boss challenges wouldn't be spaced out evenly.


I don't think that having the same amount of tracks per environment is a needed requirement. Some environments can be easier than others to complete, or maybe have have fewer tracks but a stronger boss. I believe variation is a good thing. If every environment were equal to the others, the game would feel kinda boring and repetitive.
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Re: More bad characters

Postby MTres19 » 14 Jul 2016, 14:30

0zone0ne {l Wrote}:
MTres19 {l Wrote}:The hard part would be bosses. That would probably take real programming, not just scripting and modeling.

I don't see how. Surely boss challenges would be just like normal races, but with only one AI kart. That one kart would need a more difficult AI than normal karts, but this might not be hard to make either, as the AI (as far as I know) has "artificial stupidity" of sorts that could surely be reduced or removed for bosses.


Perhaps so, but I doubt there's much artificial stupidity left by the time you get to expert mode. The AI might need to be enhanced somewhat.

woompa loompa {l Wrote}:How much of STK is "real programming" and how much of it is "just scripting and modeling"?


I didn't mean to undermine the importance of modeling when I said "just". The renderer, GUI engine, AI, and physics are all written in C or C++. The GUI itself is written in XML and AngelScript. Tracks and arenas are modeled in Blender then exported to Blitz3D format and some XML files for SuperTuxKart.

woompa loompa {l Wrote}:And in a special, unique track as well!


Right. I suppose you'll spend weeks of your own time to make a track that people will only see once, and never use again? :x Maybe you should remember that the developers aren't paid for this and only do it on their free time.

woompa loompa {l Wrote}:Does this mean that not all .blend files are available? Does this mean that STK uses non-free assets (karts, tracks, 3D models)?


Define free in the context of assets. The Blitz3D (B3D) format is completely free (Blitz BASIC is MIT-licensed) and just happens to be used by SuperTuxKart. Yes, the .blend files are freely available in the Media Repository, but those tracks were Add-Ons and did not necessarily have .blends attached. But you can be sure that all core assets are available under free licensed.

woompa loompa {l Wrote}:Maybe not even different maps, just one big map that gets larger and larger, with inaccessible zones that open up after you beat a boss.


That's what I was thinking about with cannons. But the biggest problem is probably performance, though you might be able to set the render distance when making the scene.
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Re: More bad characters

Postby woompa loompa » 14 Jul 2016, 14:51

Right. I suppose you'll spend weeks of your own time to make a track that people will only see once, and never use again? :x


OK maybe not an entirely new track, but something unique at least. For example if I'm in zone A and defeating a boss will open zone B, there could be a track made with different elements combined by tracks from zone A and B. Would this be easier to make?
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Re: More bad characters

Postby onpon4 » 14 Jul 2016, 15:33

I don't get what would be the point in more "bosses". This is a racing game. What is the point in having races against single other karts? Those are the most boring races, and invariably the easiest as well. If anything, the Nolok's castle level (I want to say it's called Fort Magma? It's been a long time) should be modified into a regular race, just with Nolok added in and possibly making him need to lose as a special condition, or something.

As for story, STK is a fun go-kart racing game; I don't care about the story. Single-player is and should be all about completing challenges and unlocking new karts and tracks. Nothing else. The plot is nothing more than an excuse plot and it should stay that way. And the best part of the game isn't even single-player, it's multi-player.
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Re: More bad characters

Postby tux_peng » 14 Jul 2016, 17:52

woompa loompa {l Wrote}:
I don't know if the original authors are still around or if the *.blend file is available.


Does this mean that not all .blend files are available? Does this mean that STK uses non-free assets (karts, tracks, 3D models)?


AFAIK Everything included in STK is free/DSFG compliant. All the tracks I mentioned were addons, they may be a little more complex
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Re: More bad characters

Postby samuncle » 14 Jul 2016, 19:48

First let me say, I agree with everyone.

We should have more badguys who could be the minions in the final race against nolok because currently the race is a bit boring and yes we aren't a RPG (it's one of the first thing in the universe page).

we are first and foremost and arcade racing game, and it's pretty difficult and unnecessary to try to tell stories in such kinds of games


Characters background are more an excuse to do racing, however yes in all next generations tracks I do tell stories (but not necessarily in a "conventional way"). For instance the Las Dunas arena is set during the Antarctica Cup and you can see advertising for the airline company landing in Gran Paradiso (it's a story and yes I know you weren't thinking about that kind of story).

because the number of characters and fictional brands available on STK universe is very limited

At each new track done it's expended and as we said it won't be a HUUUUUUUUUUUGE universe. It's only intended to provide a coherent background for tracks.

It's clear that nobody will download a game with 500 MB to run on empty tracks with no attractive, like I said, a lot of tracks with exceptional drivelines, but only two trees and a few stones. That's why people pay more than $100 for some games with beautiful graphics. Meanwhile, until not many years ago (before samuncle started making tracks with the new engine Antartica), many critics were used to say on Youtube "Supertuxkart is a cheap M@rio clone. This game is awful and has poor graphics". I dare some of them say the same, now, looking at the main tracks (those ones with many objects, wonderful lights,etc.) or any track made using the best games as a benchmark.

No one must be obligated to tell a story based on the world real history, but nobody should forbid the authors to tell a story through architecture, objects, costumes and songs. Actually, this already exists in STK. Candela City does this, Paradiso Island also and Cocoa Temple, too. You can realize you are racing in Paris, in Princess Juliana Island and Mexico or somewhere in Central America where Aztecs invented the chocolate. XR 591 is perfectly understandable as a track somewhere out of the Earth while Bovine Banyard is a clear rural area. So, why not to explore all the potential of antartica, hi-resolution textures and strong graphic cards to show a track with stunning graphics including many objects and eventual characters? So, I'm in favor of the freedom for authors of tracks, but with common sense. Some few additional characters and textures in the game will not make it worthless to download. Not all authors will include their own characters and textures. Anyway, there's always the freedom to hide complex tracks with stunning graphics on the addons site while you include empty tracks on the main game :lol: . That's why I'm for thematic packages instead a list of obligatory tracks (except for the history mode, for while).

I agree with you, and that's the direction all newer tracks are headed. I must add something, all tracks in the game are set in fictional location that's a requirement we developers requires. Because we simply don't want to include real places in the game (for various reasons). But people are free to do their own track just like you did based in a real country. We might require to change it however if we want to include this in game.

Of course tracks should have themes, and perhaps for many artists a theme starts with a story. I don't think anyone is arguing that. But it's difficult for a racing game as a whole to tell a story. Mario Kart as a whole doesn't tell any story, and people love it. The story does follow a theme, though, which it borrows from Super Mario. SuperTuxKart doesn't have anything to borrow a theme from (As far as I know, that is. Could a theme be borrowed from SuperTux?) so there's Story Mode to give some sort of explanation for the characters.

I think you don't understand. You think story as the story written in a book. You can tell a story with different elements. For instance in the track Gran Paradiso I read FAA documentation about how a runway is done in real life. I took references in airports and how they look. I even asked questions to a pilot for more information. Now of course it's not required to know this when you are racing nor it's required if you want to create an airport but it will create in your mind a sense of reality and you will be immersed in the game's universe, without realizing it.

And while it's not obvious Mario kart does it a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT. Don't trust me, just check it yourself https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVelgoKi0qQ

How much of STK is "real programming" and how much of it is "just scripting and modeling"?

99.999999999999999999 is real programming 0.0000000001 scripting. Scripting is fairly new and if you want to help to port stuff to the scripting engine it would be welcomed by everybody.

Does this mean that not all .blend files are available? Does this mean that STK uses non-free assets (karts, tracks, 3D models)?

All tracks in the main game are creative commons and open source with blend available. Tracks released for donators are not yet public (but they will be included in the main game just like others). Addons are up to their authors, some have the blend included other not.

About special tracks with boss. I don't think it would be possible considering the amount of time needed. However a normal track with special features (like fireworks, flags of the competition, etc) could be easily done for a final boss fight and or a grand prix.
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Re: More bad characters

Postby woompa loompa » 14 Jul 2016, 20:17

About special tracks with boss. I don't think it would be possible considering the amount of time needed. However a normal track with special features (like fireworks, flags of the competition, etc) could be easily done for a final boss fight and or a grand prix.


I think this could be good enough!
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Re: More bad characters

Postby tuxkartdriver » 14 Jul 2016, 20:50

Hi,

I am in favor of new characters, be good guys or bad ones. I think it doesn´t matter if they can be used as a simple racer, or a character of a track story, or even a boss style mode! I think also to have a special race mode for introducing new characters must not be the only purpose. STK game must have more characters without replacing the old ones. And one of the reasons I have been modelling a new character knows as "Shark Captain" who is a pirate for the track "1750" my brother Geek Penguin is making, is to introduce a new character for his track, but also for another track of mine with a Pirate theme.

The old characters are always been used, so I have been creating special roles for stk characters, in order not have them as usual. That's why I have created a modified version of Wilber character and a special characterization of Wilber as a "Camera Man" for my brother's track "Las Dunas". Recently, Samuncle also used this camera man Wilber in his new track.

In 1750 track post, shows some renderings of Tux, Nolok and Wilber characterized by me as bad, scary, but not less ellegant Pirates. I think creating a new character for STK game, or even adaptating old guys for new roles, makes the new races much more interesting and less boring! So, I hope my characters can be used as standard characters for other tracks of STK. :)
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Re: More bad characters

Postby MTres19 » 14 Jul 2016, 21:31

samuncle {l Wrote}:I think you don't understand. You think story as the story written in a book. You can tell a story with different elements. For instance in the track Gran Paradiso I read FAA documentation about how a runway is done in real life. I took references in airports and how they look. I even asked questions to a pilot for more information. Now of course it's not required to know this when you are racing nor it's required if you want to create an airport but it will create in your mind a sense of reality and you will be immersed in the game's universe, without realizing it.


Sorry, let me clarify. I used the same word to mean two different things

My understanding is that tracks have themes. A theme is what you get from research like you were saying, and in a way, it's a story. But a story has a plot. A story is what Story Mode is. The story in Story Mode also creates a universe (i.e. the Mascot Kingdom, Nolok = bad, the fictional companies like Nolok Industries, etc.), and that universe should be integrated into all tracks that are to be part of the main game. But tracks should have their own themes as well, the way Cocoa Temple takes place in Val Verde, and that the temple is to a chocolate god. Those sorts of things add immersion, as you said. But they're not really part of a story. They don't have anything to do with the story of Gnu's demise on Nolok's supper table. They're a theme, or a sort-of snapshot.

The Mario Kart example you gave is an excellent example: If you've played Super Mario, you know that Bowser kidnaps Princess Peach. That's pretty much equivalent to STK's Story Mode. But the tracks don't have anything to do with that story. The tracks do have a common universe, however, with one track mentioning the others in the departure signs and the classic Super Mario characters appearing as players and on the sidelines.
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Re: More bad characters

Postby GeekPenguinBR » 14 Jul 2016, 21:42

MTres19 {l Wrote}:Sorry, let me clarify. I used the same word to mean two different things

My understanding is that tracks have [i]themes
. A theme is what you get from research like you were saying, and in a way, it's a story. But a story has a plot. A story is what Story Mode is. The story in Story Mode also creates a universe (i.e. the Mascot Kingdom, Nolok = bad, the fictional companies like Nolok Industries, etc.), and that universe should be integrated into all tracks that are to be part of the main game[/i].


Seems like everybody agrees that every track must have it's own theme and, maybe, it's own micro universe, which may includes brands and characters. In other hand, most disagree about races with bosses. So, it's clear that the whole discussion has been about semantics. :)

samuncle {l Wrote}:I agree with you, and that's the direction all newer tracks are headed. I must add something, all tracks in the game are set in fictional location that's a requirement we developers requires. Because we simply don't want to include real places in the game (for various reasons). But people are free to do their own track just like you did based in a real country. We might require to change it however if we want to include this in game.


Just for clarifying: 1750 has strong resemblances and references with/to Brazil, but, just like Las Dunas Stadium as well all those tracks made by yourself, 1750 is located in a fictional country in the continent (?)called Valverde. I took architectural reference from real public buildings, but those ones on the track are not a perfect copy. They have differences. Anyway, no mayor or Brazilian authority will sue STK due to a supposed use of public buildings' images in a free game. :lol: The houses must be like those showed on the references, because that's the style of at the time. These Brazilian baroque houses and public buildings are UNESCO World Heritage sites and public domain. ;)
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Re: More bad characters

Postby MTres19 » 14 Jul 2016, 22:30

GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:Seems like everybody agrees that every track must have it's own theme and, maybe, it's own micro universe, which may includes brands and characters. In other hand, most disagree about races with bosses. So, it's clear that the whole discussion has been about semantics.


Not entirely semantics, a new overworld design was discussed, and incidentally, I think it would be cool for the hypothetical boss challenges to be in battle mode, especially with the new AI. That way it wouldn't necessarily have to be much harder than the regular challenges; just different.
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Re: More bad characters

Postby Auria » 16 Jul 2016, 00:34

I think we can summarize much of this discussion by distinguishing plot from narrative.

Plot would be "Nolok captures the gnu and must be freed". Plots are usually told through cutscenes, dialogs, etc. I don't think STK needs more plot or a deeper plot, and I think most people would agree.

Narrative, on the other end, is a lot broader and includes what you can gleam from simply looking at the world, or through gameplay itself, or general world building or the general feeling. I would agree that narrative is important for STK, a lot more than plot itself
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