Sewer Track

Sewer Track

Postby ctdabomb » 20 Jun 2015, 18:21

Hello,
A while back I started work on a sewer track, and now that I have some time, I have picked it back up. (Important and hopefully obvious note: Still Very WIP)
I'm am posting this now for you all to test, and give some feedback on the driving/gameplay. This is one of the first steps, and most important: Getting the driving fun and the right amount of challenge. Right now graphically I am still in the blocking stage. This means that everything will be modelled/textured/light very basically - blocked out - to get the rough placement right. These will all change/be improved, so please do not focus on that now. I am well aware it looks ugly. It is supposed to be.
I could write plenty more about this track, but I won't, to not change your views on this. I would love for you all to test it, and give your feedback on the driving, road, gameplay, etc...

ctdabomb
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screenshot3.jpg
screenshot2.jpg
sewer.zip
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Re: Sewer Track

Postby XGhost » 21 Jun 2015, 18:46

Hi ctdabomb

I tested your WIP-Track and I'm impressed. It's an early WIP but you can already breathe in the atmosphere of a fabulous and gorgeous sewer track! I am very glad that you clearly heeded the concept arts from 0zone0ne, because I personally like them very much.
The main path of your track is pretty good: There aren't many straight parts but the curvy road is still not too difficult. The place overall is easily imaginable as a sewer.
At the moment the road is in general tight which isn't bad at all, but I miss a part where the road becomes rather wide and where you are able to overtake strong opponents easier. There is a place in your mockup where such a part is imagineable (attached picture). As I don't know yet what you're planning to do with the green water in this sector, this is just an idea.

That's it, keep up the good work! I'm very interested in seeing where this is going!
XGhost

Edit: And oh -> From where do you take your ideas and inspiration? The track somehow reminds me of the sewer level in Amnesia, The Dark Descent :D
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sewer-2015.06.21_19.10.32.png
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Re: Sewer Track

Postby ArDanWol » 22 Jun 2015, 02:23

Seems good so far. :) It's rather challenging... a little too challenging in certain areas, but I like it very much overall. There are two areas that combine a very tight turn with a very narrow road. Maybe widen those parts up just a bit? I really like the concept of the track and like how it looks so far.
Now, focusing on my personal opinion, I think it would be nice if you made the starting line above the ground and then made the track descend into the sewer. It makes me claustrophobic down there ;). Good work on making this happen!

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Re: Sewer Track

Postby GeekPenguinBR » 22 Jun 2015, 04:39

Hi!

I liked the track. It's not flat, but it has many ups and downs. The curves are nice and most are easy, too. IMO, many points need some limit like a guard-rail type, but it's a wip, so, I believe that you will improve the "safety" of the karts. The most critic points are A and B, respectively due to the difficult to realize what's the right direction and due to the lack of "protection" on those "dangerous" blue curves where the karts may fall somewhere. :lol:

Since it is wip, I will not comment about textures or lack of other objects (it's a bit empty, for while) like tubes, lamps, etc.. I Liked the green light, but there's a long corridor totally green. I really don't know what's the best solution to make that stretch more interesting. Maybe, the karts could pass over waters. :think:

Anyway, congrats for you new project!
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a.jpg
B.jpg
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Re: Sewer Track

Postby ctdabomb » 22 Jun 2015, 22:49

Thank you all!
XGhost {l Wrote}:At the moment the road is in general tight which isn't bad at all, but I miss a part where the road becomes rather wide and where you are able to overtake strong opponents easier.
The road being too tight was what was worrying me the most. Let's see what others think about it. You are right about no place to overtake people, I see what I can come up with in the area you mentioned.

Edit: And oh -> From where do you take your ideas and inspiration? The track somehow reminds me of the sewer level in Amnesia, The Dark Descent :D

hmm... I try to take my inspiration from any number of places, as many as I can. For this it was many internet image image searches. I did search for game environments like this, but I didn't find any. Obviously I didn't look for that well enough :p

ArDanWol {l Wrote}:Seems good so far. :) It's rather challenging... a little too challenging in certain areas, but I like it very much overall. There are two areas that combine a very tight turn with a very narrow road. Maybe widen those parts up just a bit? I really like the concept of the track and like how it looks so far.

I think i know the areas you mention, but would you mind pointing out the areas that annoy you to most/at all? Just to be sure ;)

I think it would be nice if you made the starting line above the ground and then made the track descend into the sewer. It makes me claustrophobic down there ;)

That is an idea. I wasn't planning on it, but if it is a issue, it can certainly be changed A couple of the areas were going to be rather open, but if that isn't enough for the clautrophobicness...

GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:I liked the track. It's not flat, but it has many ups and downs. The curves are nice and most are easy, too. IMO, many points need some limit like a guard-rail type, but it's a wip, so, I believe that you will improve the "safety" of the karts. The most critic points are A and B, respectively due to the difficult to realize what's the right direction and due to the lack of "protection" on those "dangerous" blue curves where the karts may fall somewhere. :lol:

Guard rails are coming :) The reason they aren't up now is probably a mix of wanting to make the track drivable without them, and not wanting to make them.

A suggestion from a while ago was to add a barrel roll/loop de loop thing.... something for me/whoever to think about.

Thank you all for your suggestions, keep them coming!
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Re: Sewer Track

Postby ArDanWol » 22 Jun 2015, 23:55

ctdabomb {l Wrote}:hmm... I try to take my inspiration from any number of places, as many as I can. For this it was many internet image image searches. I did search for game environments like this, but I didn't find any. Obviously I didn't look for that well enough :p

Maybe look up some YouTube videos on Piranha Plant Slide in Mario Kart. It fits the general theme of this track fairly well. Just search "Mario Kart 8 Piranha Plant Slide" or "Mario Kart 8 Lightning Cup" on YouTube. It might also give you some ideas for the starting line. ;)

ctdabomb {l Wrote}:
ArDanWol {l Wrote}:Seems good so far. :) It's rather challenging... a little too challenging in certain areas, but I like it very much overall. There are two areas that combine a very tight turn with a narrow road. Maybe widen those parts up just a bit? I really like the concept of the track and like how it looks so far.

I think i know the areas you mention, but would you mind pointing out the areas that annoy you to most/at all? Just to be sure ;)

I have the 2 main spots below:
sewer-2015.06.22_18.39.55.png
Tight turn #1

sewer-2015.06.22_18.40.07.png
Tight Turn #1 Second Shot

sewer-2015.06.22_18.40.47.png
Tight Turn #2 Right after the Jump.


Hope this is helpful! :D
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Re: Sewer Track

Postby ctdabomb » 29 Jun 2015, 17:41

Here is a small update. I tried making the mentioned curves near the beginning easier and wider, but I could use others less familiar with the track to test and suggest.
Your other notes are problems are not forgotten, they will be fixed after these curves.
On the subject of the open area for passing people, I've tried a few ideas, but none are working well, (it's still the same in this upload) but unless I get some suggestions, we will probably go with a plain, flat, open area.
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sewer.zip
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Re: Sewer Track

Postby charlie » 29 Jun 2015, 21:15

ctdabomb {l Wrote}:On the subject of the open area for passing people, I've tried a few ideas, but none are working well, (it's still the same in this upload) but unless I get some suggestions, we will probably go with a plain, flat, open area.

What about a big storm drain overflow chamber? Usually a few big pillars in a (usually) very large, high space. I couldn't remember what the correct name is. I've seen them in quite a few films over the years.
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Re: Sewer Track

Postby ctdabomb » 01 Jul 2015, 18:47

I changed the area near the end with the zipper(s) to something more open and wide. The curve there is also easier. Did this fix/improve the issue?
Comments about the curves at the beginning would be helpful. Otherwise i'm assuming they are fine. I also Made it playable in reverse, but it isn't as smooth and is uglier.

charlie {l Wrote}:What about a big storm drain overflow chamber? Usually a few big pillars in a (usually) very large, high space. I couldn't remember what the correct name is. I've seen them in quite a few films over the years.
Probably something like this graphically... I'm more worried about keeping that section easy to drive for passing, but not boring.
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sewer.zip
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Re: Sewer Track

Postby GeekPenguinBR » 02 Jul 2015, 02:07

Hi! I'm busy with my own project, but I have tried your track again. Basically, it remains as easy to drive as it was. I had no difficult to drive on the curves. Keep working. You are in the right direction, for sure. :)
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Re: Sewer Track

Postby samuncle » 09 Jul 2015, 15:59

I just quickly tested and it seems very nice :). Congratulation however I suggest several minor details:

1) Never have a wall just next to the road. Always add a little step or something that make a little transition between the road and the wall (also it helps to avoid the camera to go outside since it add a little margin)
limit.jpg

2) IMHO the starting should be less "claustrophobic" (if you add the little margin it will be already better).
3) I hope you will remove the ugly grid texture. We have a better one in the generic texture folder.
4) The path in the blue section is a bit "rough", maybe it should be smoother
5) Maybe add some edge split to avoid smooth hard edges

Otherwise it seems mainly okay :). Maybe you can try to focus on the details now
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Re: Sewer Track

Postby ArDanWol » 09 Jul 2015, 17:21

Definitely headed in the right direction :)
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Re: Sewer Track

Postby capricom45 » 09 Jul 2015, 17:39

The track looks nice, but you might want to rename it to 'sewer_track.b3d' instead of 'Sewer_track.b3d', STK crashed because of that.
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Re: Sewer Track

Postby ctdabomb » 05 Jul 2016, 17:37

So seeing as I am an intelligent person, I deleted the .blend for the project, right as I was about to continue work on it. Back in the day some files were recovered by converting the .b3d - viewtopic.php?f=18&t=215 The program mentioned there doesn't run on my os. Would someone be able to convert this? Many thanks.
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Re: Sewer Track

Postby MTres19 » 05 Jul 2016, 19:50

Here you go. For future reference, I used Assimp to convert to OBJ and imported that into Blender. Of course, something might be missing, but that's what I did for the Lost Chasm track, and it worked OK.
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Re: Sewer Track

Postby ctdabomb » 05 Jul 2016, 21:26

Thank you very much, I appreciate it greatly!
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Re: Sewer Track

Postby ctdabomb » 14 Jul 2016, 21:24

The track works with 9.2, and I have started improving one section of the track. The rest is still very much the same - blocky, plain, and green.
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Re: Sewer Track

Postby tux_peng » 15 Jul 2016, 19:11

Nice ! I like it. The fence near the end looks a bit out of place though, and there are shaddow- but no light source. The sun would not be shining down there, maybe ceiling lamps or a beam from a manhole cover?
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Re: Sewer Track

Postby GeekPenguinBR » 20 Jul 2016, 05:58

Hi I tested the track again and all I can say is it's nice to drive and not difficult, after all.

The mood environment is good and the is mysterious. However, I miss some details like a poster with a warning, lights, pipes and, maybe, an old "machine" with an undefined purpose. A rat and a "scary" monster could be really nice to increase the humor. I made a green "thing" like a swamp monster made of some poisoned or radioactive material. The monster tries to look terrible, but he looks silly. :)
Sewer - Pipes, exhaust, fences and Monster.jpg


I added some links (I bet you have already seen almost all)to give you an idea about my suggestions to fill more the track, but I have no intention to increase even more your the amount of job:

http://www.supercheats.com/guides/files ... 011_29.jpg
http://www.travelsignposts.com/Paris/fi ... JP3906.jpg
http://xdaysiny.com/wp-content/uploads/ ... useum-.jpg
http://www.paristoric.com/images/iconog ... egouts.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/wwfKNWM.png
http://hellgate.suewebik.net/obrazky/lokace/sewer02.jpg
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/File:Sewe ... e_room.jpg
Last edited by GeekPenguinBR on 24 Jul 2016, 05:47, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Sewer Track

Postby XGhost » 20 Jul 2016, 15:49

Welcome back to the pond, ctdabomb! :D
Haven't tested this one in the new engine yet, but will definitely do asap to give you a proper feedback ;) .

@GeekPenguinBR, It's just a mockup of the track drivelines / road. Even though your ideas for track improvements are nice, they're not entitled to be in the space of this early stage. Before concerning about the look, atmosphere, modelling, texturing, inserting objects, fine tuning, etc..., it's necessary to care about STKs base mechanic, which is racing. At this WIP state, it should be easy to make major changes, like changing the path or making the road wider / tighter. No one cares about the look yet ;) .
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Re: Sewer Track

Postby GeekPenguinBR » 20 Jul 2016, 16:55

XGhost {l Wrote}:@GeekPenguinBR, It's just a mockup of the track drivelines / road. Even though your ideas for track improvemen..., they're not entitled to be in the space of this early stage. Before concerning about the look, atmosphere, modelling, texturing, inserting objects, fine tuning, etc..., it's necessary to care about STKs base mechanic, which is racing. At this WIP state, it should be easy to make major changes, like changing the path or making the road wider / tighter. No one cares about the look yet ;) .


No one? Are you sure? I do care. Maybe others too. Then does not my opinion counts?

The main aspect of the race is not the visual, but, graphics does matter, too. For more than one week, nobody has a single comment about the driveline itself other than tux_peng, the driveline is assumed as drivable. So, there's no problem to comment about graphics. I had the education to comment about a track made by another artist giving him some feedback, since this is for free and costs me nothing to share. Anyway, I'm not critiquing his work neither inventing more job for the author. My suggestions are just suggestions. The ideas were not intended to increase the complexity of the work to do.

At this stage of the project, I (maybe the author, too) assume the driveline is definitive or needs a few minor modifications, which he could have made if more people would have tested and gave him some feedback. Since almost nobody has commented for more than one year since he uploaded the WIP track for testing, he will assume the track is going through the right way. In other words, the driveline is approved and, now, starts the phase to add new elements to finish the track, but, no one cares about the look? It seems like you didn't see the previous comments made by other people about visual aspects.

Samuncle, said him "try to focus on the details now". Which details? Those ones he called "several minor details" and listed by him, which included the texture. So, if I was the author, I would assume that the driveline itself is already good and it's time to think about visual aspects like objects, textures and lights. That's the subject of the comment posted by tux_peng:

tux_peng {l Wrote}:Nice ! I like it. The fence near the end looks a bit out of place though, and there are shaddow- but no light source. The sun would not be shining down there, maybe ceiling lamps or a beam from a manhole cover?


The track, the driveline must be defined by him, since nobody has commented about possible "issues" in the mechanics, but I really doubt you would complain if another person had said exactly the same said by me. It seems like some people get offended when I comment the same commented by others.
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Re: Sewer Track

Postby XGhost » 20 Jul 2016, 19:20

Man, you sure know how to start unneeded discussions ;) . I don't want to blame you for your comment. As written, your ideas are cool and yes your opinion matters (jeez :) ). It's just a friendly reminder that they might come a little bit too early.
I tested this track in a very early stage in STK 0.8 -> It was clearly a mockup (also stated). We have a ported 0.9 version right here now, which is just slightly different. The author resumed his / her work not long ago. So I think I'm safe saying, that it is still an early mockup. That's why you usuallly wait until the author itself comes up with something that screams: "I'm ready now! Look what awesome objects I made for this track!".

GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:At this stage of the project, I (maybe the author, too) assume the driveline is definitive or needs a few minor modifications, which he could have made if more people would have tested and gave him some feedback. Since almost nobody has commented for more than one year since he uploaded the WIP track for testing, he will assume the track is going through the right way.

A problem we're facing since several years now. Our community in the forums is not that big and not everyone has time looking deeper into contributors projects. I don't have either, that's why I wrote that I will test the track asap.

GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:In other words, the driveline is approved and, now, starts the phase to add new elements to finish the track, but, no one cares about the look?

I don't think we (this community) are the only one who give feedback to the projects posted here. So, it's a bit bold to say that everything is approved now (especially after a such short interval). -> Nope, after finishing the main mechanics doesn't start the phase for adding final elements. And yes, the look is still not important, as long as I can understand the concept of the created 3D world.

GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:It seems like you didn't see the previous comments made by other people about visual aspects.

Something you will hear a thousand times as a game designer.
About feedback: Please, know the difference between player and developer. You need to be responsive to the feedback / critics from the players as much as you can and translate it into a scheme that creates a better player experience. This project hasn't reached this state yet. A feedback provided with focus on mechanics and concept can help much more in this case. Of course other aspects are relevant too, but don't need to be stressed so early.

GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:Samuncle, said him "try to focus on the details now". Which details? Those ones he called "several minor details" and listed by him, which included the texture. So, if I was the author, I would assume that the driveline itself is already good and it's time to think about visual aspects like objects, textures and lights.

You know, even samuncle isn't always right ;)

GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:(...) but I really doubt you would complain if another person had said exactly the same said by me. It seems like some people get offended when I comment the same commented by others.

Sir, I really need you to back up a little. I didn't complain, I just made a statement (and was not unkind in any way!). I didn't get offended (for what anyway?) but I'm getting now. I cannot tolerate your prejudgment against community members here. As if every comment involving you would be offending. Please keep it down.

< end of unnecessary reply, which explains exactly what has been previously written by me >
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Re: Sewer Track

Postby GeekPenguinBR » 21 Jul 2016, 00:15

XGhost {l Wrote}:Man, you sure know how to start unneeded discussions ;) . I don't want to blame you for your comment. As written, your ideas are cool and yes your opinion matters (jeez :) ). It's just a friendly reminder that they might come a little bit too early.

And again, I let clear that the stage of critics about mechanics is already gone, since the last big update occurred more than one year ago. IMO, the track is playable. A bit narrow, but playable without difficulty. So, he may assume that those ones who omitted their opinions think the same and, maybe, he may start the next stage if he wants. It's not early to talk about the future objects and other graphical aspects. He may include them or not. Maybe not, but we can help him with suggestions which he is free to like or hate. ;)


XGhost {l Wrote}: Sir, I really need you to back up a little. I didn't complain, I just made a statement (and was not unkind in any way!). I didn't get offended (for what anyway?) but I'm getting now. I cannot tolerate your prejudgment against community members here. As if every comment involving you would be offending. Please keep it down.


There's no prejudgment against community members by my side; so, you don't have to tolerate or not tolerate. My only concern has to do with your comment upon my suggestions for graphic aspects as if I was precipitant, but I was not and other members had commented about graphics before myself and you said nothing (because there was nothing to say against their comments too). Anyway, this topic is about ctdabomb's track. Let's come back to the real subject.
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Re: Sewer Track

Postby 0zone0ne » 21 Jul 2016, 01:05

ctdabomb, I'm really glad you're picking up this project again! It's turning out nicely. Here's some feedback based on your latest version, regarding pacing and gameplay:


straightaway.jpg
In the thin tunnel with slime beneath the floor, after the first chamber, there is a straightaway that feels disproportionately long. I think this could be made a bit shorter, perhaps the same length as the other straightaway at the end of the same tunnel. Think about pacing: try to make all the features of the track evenly spaced out along the road.

The width of the road in this thin tunnel is fine how it is - please do not make it any wider! Once the walls of the tunnel eventually get covered in pipes and machinery, it will seem very claustrophobic and tight, which I think is needed in at least one section of the track.

I think it would fun for the thin tunnel to emerge into the large tunnel through a hole in the wall of the large tunnel, so the racers drop down onto the road. This would make the road a bit more dynamic, and give a purpose to the second straightaway in the thin tunnel (it would be leading up to a drop). I did a quick illustration to show what I mean, as well as some ideas for the art pass later on (sorry it isn't coloured - perhaps I'll colour it later). The red arrow indicates the path the karts will take.
scan3_edit.jpg
The two roads here connect at a pretty sharp and abrupt angle, which makes a change from the rounded curves usually seen in the game. Due to the height difference, the player won't be able to see the road ahead until they have already began falling, so it will probably be necessary to add a directional sign on the wall opposite the opening, indicating to the player to turn left.


mesh_bridge.jpg
I honestly feel that the width of the metal mesh bridge over the slime in the large tunnel could be made thinner, AND have the barriers removed. ;) If the player is given a message beforehand of where the track is going to go (and in this case, they are, as they can plainly see the bridge ahead of them while driving), you can make the track quite thin and don't need to give it barriers, especially if it goes in a straight line.

There currently isn't much of a chance for the player to prepare themselves for the jump at the end of the large tunnel. You could possibly add a short straightaway before the jump, so the player can line themselves up with the jump properly. The same goes for the tunnel immediately after the jump - it could be a bit longer. Maybe the tunnel after the jump could be angled very steeply downwards as well? To add more vertical variation to the track, and keep the player on their toes.


chasm.jpg
In the next chamber with the archways in the distance: You don't need guardrails here either! Just bank the road into the curves, and make sure you've angled the road and adjusted the elevation so that the player can see what is coming next and plan ahead their turns - this is basically done already. In my original sketches for this track (which is cool to see that you're still sticking to!), this part of the road was supposed to be in a massive, bottomless chasm. Coming into this section should give the player vertigo. You can add to this effect by taking away the track's guardrails, and by making it as thin as absolutely possible (I think its current width is good, definitely don't make it wider) while keeping a reasonable difficultly level. Just make sure the track ahead is visible to the player so they can see what's coming next, and that the road is smooth.


outside.jpg
Finally, I think the last chamber of the track before the final tunnel could be made a little bit more interesting. You could do this by enlarging the chamber, making the straightaway much longer, and then splitting the straightaway up into three or four seperate platforms, a bit like stepping-stones. To see what I mean, there is a section exactly like this in the track Deep Sea Driving in Crash Nitro Kart (the epitome of racing track design!): https://youtu.be/VITbxUdeY74?t=38. This will work best if the track is still gently curving to the left, so the player still has to think about turning slightly.

Good luck with the track. :) When it comes time to do the art pass, I would love to give more concept art and help flesh out the scenery of the track. I personally hope that you focus on making the road as drivable as possible, and rely on this to stop people from driving off the edge, rather than using guardrails or barriers. I really want to see more challenging tracks in SuperTuxKart, and hope that this track will be a trendsetter in that regard.
Last edited by 0zone0ne on 22 Jul 2016, 21:55, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Sewer Track

Postby woompa loompa » 21 Jul 2016, 10:27

I did a quick illustration to show what I mean


Wow, did you make that drawing by hand? You're good!
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