Las Dunas Stadium

Re: Las Dunas Stadium uploaded to Add-Ons Website

Postby GeekPenguinBR » 15 Jul 2018, 15:52

XGhost {l Wrote}:I really don't know, from where your aversion to the team comes from...

From nowhere. I don't feel aversion toward the team. I just realized that they had no interest to include this track on the game.

XGhost {l Wrote}:. Most of the comments here are positive

I really still doesn't accounted every comment, so, I don't know how many percent are favorable or not. However, the bad comments were really disgusting. Read again and you realize.

XGhost {l Wrote}:... I personally really like this track very much.

Thanks a lot. We (me and my brother) are proud to contribute with a track that some people enjoy. Coming from a game developer like you, it's even more important, since you are used to test WIP projects to the exhaustion until you consider it acceptable.

XGhost {l Wrote}:What also shines through, is that when you released the track in 2015, you released it with the belief that it's finished and there will be only some small parts to fix*.

Yes, but, when I said "finished", I mean "I won't modify the shape of the track neither I will do any big modification. Just give me your opinions and I will fix and improve all the details, but not a complete redo". Maybe I did not use the appropriate term to describe the track at that time.

XGhost {l Wrote}:You stated that this was your first track for STK. Remember, your first track/game/project will never be the perfect one. People progress by failures and mistakes. Feedback and critics are important and can sometimes hurt, but will always make you better! You don't need to value every feedback and comment in gold.


Criticism is completely normal. I don't mind when I see personal opinions. I just don't like some term like "ugly", "boring", etc. There are other ways to say "I don't like much".


XGhost {l Wrote}: When you get comments like "impossible to drive" or something, take it, evaluate it, and try to elaborate what the writer really meant. What does work? Where could an unexperienced player fail? Where did I do wrong? Looking back through the posts, you've gotten so many good, even great feedback from so many perspectives. A pity that it came too late in most cases (I'll elaborate, don't worry).

This kind of observation is perfectly normal. No problem, here.

XGhost {l Wrote}: To sum it up: No interest? That's out of the question! You showed us all what can be achieved with hard work and commitment! Your first track? What you delivered is awesome and you should be f***ing proud of that, seriously...As for your track: I would put Las Dunas Stadium down. You did a great job, there's much to improve (like always ;) ) but I would move on. This was your first track. Your next one will be even better.
Cheers and thanks again for you great contributions!


Many thanks, really. Your opinion is very important with all those encouraging words, but I will not change my vision on the acceptance of this track. I don't hate samuncle, auria or any other member of the team, of course, but It's simple to see their total lack of interest: two years passed and none of them asked me something like "Can you give us the Blender file? We want to put Las Dunas on the game, but we need to change it first". The file is there. What kind of interest keeps the original files of a track on the repository for two years without any work or attempt to adapt it to the required standards for official tracks? It's clear that they are not interested in this track.

I don't worry about this. I know this track is far from perfect. I could do a better project for it if I had more patience. So, my brother could do an even better job than he did. Anyway, this is our first track and some people like it. So, we are satisfied. Unfortunately, we didn't improve Las Dunas Stadium because no one person told the personal impressions after the final releasing of the track on march 2016. This was my complaint, TBH. In other words: all the feedback was given while the track had issues. I mean, by December 2015, but no one posted a single comment when it was finished, by march 2016..

Anyway, I'm happy to see that you like the track. Thank you very much for your observations and friendly comment.
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium

Postby Auria » 15 Jul 2018, 23:10

Okay I'd like to add a few words to this thread. There is actually really great work in that track. It looks good, and also please note that on the addons website it is marked as "feature", meaning it is one of the top tracks people will see (it's got 26 ratings, and is highly rated, so I think it is appreciated by players). So we definitely don't think negatively of your track (even though some people might not have the most diplomatic way of providing constructive criticism).

We can never garantee any track will go into the game of course, but if you don't provide the blend file then you definitely garantee that it will not happen as the source files are required for a track to be used in the main game. If the source files are not provided, we usually assume that the author kind of "opted out" of that possibility and wanted to keep the track as a more personal project by choosing not to release the sources - and we generally don't have the time to go ask for it, sorry if we seem a bit passive at times but it's not uncommon for me to open my mailbox and have 20 stk-related mails and/or forum threads to handle, so as you can imagine it's not possible for us to follow up on everything.

As for remaining criticism, driveability now seems much better, though the "yellow" jump is still a bit problematic, as there's a sharp turn immediately after a big jump, causing karts (AIs and players alike) to often go off-track, see video captures:
https://www.amazon.ca/clouddrive/share/ ... 1ZBWxnkq9Q
https://www.amazon.ca/clouddrive/share/ ... hJp5CfPct8
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium

Postby GeekPenguinBR » 15 Jul 2018, 23:29

I'm watching the videos. I will reply in some minutes. :)
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium

Postby GeekPenguinBR » 16 Jul 2018, 00:10

Auria {l Wrote}:Okay I'd like to add a few words to this thread. There is actually really great work in that track. It looks good

It's good to know. Thank you, very much.

When I mean lack of interest I'm not complaining for Las Dunas stays out of the main game. You had not the blender, so you couldn't put it on the main game. For lack of interest I mean:

1.the lack of feedback about the corrections made by us; and,
2.the fact nobody asked us to upload the final version on the repository when I forgot this.

I will explain.

Auria {l Wrote}:(...) note that on the addons website it is marked as "feature", meaning it is one of the top tracks people will see (it's got 26 ratings, and is highly rated, so I think it is appreciated by players). So we definitely don't think negatively of your track

We have seen the rating and we want to thank everyone for the evaluation.

Auria {l Wrote}:We can never garantee any track will go into the game of course, but if you don't provide the blend file then you definitely garantee that it will not happen as the source files are required for a track to be used in the main game. If the source files are not provided, we usually assume that the author kind of "opted out" of that possibility and wanted to keep the track as a more personal project by choosing not to release the sources


I posted, in march 2016, the new title of this topic with an update informing the release of the final version of our track. Since nobody commented giving a feedback about the corrections made by us, I assumed nobody cared the track, so I took the decision of not upload the Blender. However, I began to see the rate to the add on the website and, then, I thought "Maybe some people like it and we must to upload the blender with all textures, but I forgot to do this (since the Olympic Games were coming).

Anyway, I know that my design was not perfect and my brother had to work a lot trying to fix all the issues I created with my imperfect design. So, I know that some improvements should be made before classifiy the track as completely finished and working well.

Auria {l Wrote}:As for remaining criticism, driveability now seems much better, though the "yellow" jump is still a bit problematic, as there's a sharp turn immediately after a big jump, causing karts (AIs and players alike) to often go off-track, see video captures

I have seen the videos and, of course, I realize that there's juts a short space "to land" after that jump 'through the fire and flames'. I'm using my free time (beyond many other things) to work on 3 different tracks (work on a different one when I get bored), but I could retake this project in the case of interest. Anyway, I focus on these 3 projects.

Thanks for your reply. :)
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium

Postby Ludsky » 16 Jul 2018, 16:59

I like this map but i have delete for one problem : sometimes, me or an another kart lost one laps or win one laps. Perhaps problem with driveline ? I don't know
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium

Postby GeekPenguinBR » 17 Jul 2018, 01:38

Ludsky {l Wrote}:I like this map but i have delete for one problem : sometimes, me or an another kart lost one laps or win one laps. Perhaps problem with driveline ? I don't know


Weird. I've already completed hundreds of laps on this track and it never happened.
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium

Postby Ludsky » 17 Jul 2018, 09:06

For me Yes, i think it's at the arrival level, when we take next to the inflatable thing

I play on SuperTux Mod and have an another problem, so many karts with the speed goes behind the barrier
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium uploaded to Add-Ons Website

Postby XGhost » 17 Jul 2018, 09:47

GeekPenguinBR {l Wrote}:Yes, but, when I said "finished", I mean "I won't modify the shape of the track neither I will do any big modification. Just give me your opinions and I will fix and improve all the details, but not a complete redo". Maybe I did not use the appropriate term to describe the track at that time.

See? You got one big heavy point right there. That's something that you absolutely can improve. The core of every track (because it's a racing game) must work. It must be fun to drive, should be diverse and working on multiple levels of difficulties. The biggest problem with your track is exactly, that this core is not working properly. And it's hard because you get mostly negative feedback about the tracks shape but are unable to change this because you built all the scenery already around it. If you had released the track as soon you got something working, even as the scenery or textures did not yet exist (this is called box prototyping), you could've get it tested by the community, before you spent so much time on it. Fail faster.
I already mentioned that in an earlier post in that thread I think in 2015. You released the tack waaaaayyy tooooo late. You need to let people test your track as soon as possible. You don't need assets, you don't need scenery or fully finished textures, you just need its core -> the track shape + drivelines. If people fail driving your rough mockup, the finished track won't work either. Let the community test the track to the ground, let them tear it apart, get feedback as early as possible. Then it's just a matter of days to redo a track shape and make it better, and when you got something that works well, go to the next step and run wild with the asset production.
And "me and my brother tested it" is not an excuse. As creators, you are always the worst judge of your own work. What are we supposed to do with a video showing how you drive the track as someone who knows it inside out?

I hear, you still pursue the other projects you kicked off. I would start exactly there: Already have a working driveline? Let us play it. We do understand that the project is currently WIP. We do not expect a piece of art out of the box. You need to fail and realize as soon as possible, what is working and what is not.
More over, sometimes you will get feedback of things the players like, you never intended that this might be cool. Catching this feedback es early as possible will let you expand on this. Maybe the track will then turn out nothing you have imagined from the start. Embrace that, it's a chance, because no idea comes fully formed.

Just a comment from my experience.

(Unrelated to this topic): Did you catch my e-mail message?
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium

Postby GeekPenguinBR » 17 Jul 2018, 19:42

XGhost,
Today, I would act in a completely different way. That was my first project of a track (just some months after I have learned the basic of 3D modeling), so, my goal was to see and let you all see as soon as possible and "finished "that project I had in my mind. I must say that Las Dunas became exactly what I had in mind, including the angle of vision and point of view (I mean, what the player could see from every point), but I was thinking like an architect/Urbanist instead a game designer. I said this at the time in another topic. Why? Not only because I was used to think as an architect since was 12 or even before and, later, for having I studied 1 year of technical level in home building (be an architect was my goal until I had to change* for the electronics/engineering and, then, changing again to management because of the Navy) but, also because I was never an affectionate fan of racing games. Actually, STK was the very first racing game in 3D and I was adult for a long time when I played it it first time. So, you couldn't expect more from a guy who learned 3D months before his first track and never had been a racing game. This combination couldn't be a success in the first attempt.

Now, I have to invert the order testing the driveline first, but, in some cases, I need to build a minimum 3D scenery to not confuse the vision of the tester who would drive in a driveline suspended on nothing or two drivelines apparently "crossing" each other.


(*)The school changed the course schedule from early morning to the night and I only could study at morning.

I do not check my box frequently, since just only two persons have sent me a direct message in 4 years in this forum, but I will reply your email.
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium uploaded to Add-Ons Website

Postby Alayan » 29 Jul 2018, 23:50

XGhost {l Wrote}:I already mentioned that in an earlier post in that thread I think in 2015. You released the tack waaaaayyy tooooo late. You need to let people test your track as soon as possible. You don't need assets, you don't need scenery or fully finished textures, you just need its core -> the track shape + drivelines. If people fail driving your rough mockup, the finished track won't work either. Let the community test the track to the ground, let them tear it apart, get feedback as early as possible. Then it's just a matter of days to redo a track shape and make it better, and when you got something that works well, go to the next step and run wild with the asset production.

This.

I've tested a lot of add-on tracks by curiosity.

This one isn't among my favorites because I don't like its shape, how you drive on it, and this is a kind of issue no amount of scenery can save this.

It's good to know that for your future projects, you will allow much earlier driveline testing, this should help to make them better. More quality tracks is always good.
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium uploaded to Add-Ons Website

Postby GeekPenguinBR » 30 Jul 2018, 23:06

Alayan {l Wrote}:I've tested a lot of add-on tracks by curiosity.
This one isn't among my favorites because I don't like its shape, how you drive on it, and this is a kind of issue no amount of scenery can save this.


You need to understand that this is not a track like the others; this is an indoor track. Another detail: this track was intended to have a medium to hard level of driveability, since I saw some people asking for tracks with a bit more of difficult. The shape could be very different, anyway. The possibilities were infinite, but I made my decision for this one. I didn't expect that it would please everyone, of course.

As said by me on the previous replies, I hear my target audience (you, the players who like to drive on STK) in order to offer the best possible according to the limitations of one or two voluntary contributors working in free time. At least we make something and we are always trying to improve. For example: 5 of my main projects were paused to re-think the shape of these tracks with the goal to choose the best design with less job, less graphic demand, etc.
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium

Postby Alayan » 31 Jul 2018, 02:41

I don't care if the track is supposed to be indoor or outdoor. I care if it's enjoyable to drive on it, and yours is not.

As you don't seem to get why people don't like it, I'll expand on my reasons. The shape has several core design flaws :
1)The alternative routes represents something like 90% of the track's length. Alternative paths are cool, but there should still be a significant common core. It should more often than not represent at least half of the track's length. In case it do not, you should not have one set of alternative paths, but two+ (something like -<>--<>-).
2)The left road is very simple, it's a rectangle with round corners. Not really challenging or interesting.
3)The jumps on the right road are awfully calibrated, especially the last one. Even going in at a very slow speed, you are forced to crash after the 3rd one. This is not a challenge, but a needless frustration. I'm among those who like difficulty in tracks, but this is not the right way to do it. Look at The Old Mine or The Lost Chasm to get a better idea of how a track can be challenging but fair, rewarding skillful driving.
4)Obviously, considering (2) and (3) if you want to do a good time, you should always use the left road, whatever your skill level. The right one is useless. This is bad design : alternative paths should always offer a balance. For example, one can be easier for less skilled players, but take a little bit more time. Or both can be very close in difficulty and length. Or one can be faster at novice/intermediate speeds and the other at expert/supertux speeds (possible with onroad zippers, nitros...). But a path should never be lengthier and harder.
5)The track is very short. This obviously apply to some official tracks too, One or two gimmick track like OMC is ok, but otherwise tracks should last at least 30s imo. 20s to complete a lap is not enough.
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Re: Las Dunas Stadium

Postby GeekPenguinBR » 31 Jul 2018, 21:31

Alayan {l Wrote}: As you don't seem to get why people don't like it, I'll expand on my reasons.

Reviews
Which people? I would like to see the research you have on hand, because I do not have one myself. As a marketer, I work with feedback. Since feedback on this forum was zero after the track was declared ready to upload (March 2016), the only feedback I received was the votation on the official website. You can even check that Las Duras Stadium received more than 20 votes, which is very little if you imagine that each vote represents one person and there are thousands of them playing STK, but 20 votes are one of the highest votes on the site and Auria used this argument to show me that the track was not as badly received as I thought and you keep thinking.

I really do not know why people come back to this topic and try to recreate the debate. This track was not included in the main game and neither will be. It's just one more add on; play whoever you want. No one is being forced to play. Do not like? Do not play. It's simple. There is no need to keep telling me that this project was not good and that I should avoid it in the next few tries.

1.I do not want to redo this track;
2. My other track designs are completely different; and,
3. No one reopens topics from other old tracks to criticize them. Only with this do that.

To be clear: I am not rejecting any kind of criticism to defend a supposed bad project. I'm simply recognizing that the design could be much better, but I opted for the one that was used and I have no interest in redoing it. So there is no reason to continue the debate on this track.


Design
Alayan {l Wrote}: The shape has several core design flaws (...) The right one is useless. This is bad design


Your comment looks like an attempt to turn my track on a useless piece of trash!

About the design
Bad design is the consequence of one of three things:

1. Bad designer's reasoning; or,
2. Low knowledge of the designer; or
3.Taste of the designer.

Number 1 and 2 are out of the question. I do not have problems to reason in depth, nor do I lack and knowledge of what a good kart racing track is. I am not one of those designers who never prepare their own meal, but create and sketch a frozen food package that burns the consumer who uses a little more force when trying to remove the plastic wax after 10 minutes in the microwave or the designer who draws a lousy coffee pot that pours liquid out of the cup and does this because he himself does not drink coffee and does not know how such a jar should work. I know what features an STK track should have to be considered good. I simply thought of all the options and chose the design that was put into it. You do not like it, but there are people who like it. Taste is something subjective. My taste has no precedence over your nor does your taste take precedence over mine and that of other people may have liked Las Dunas Stadium too.

Alayan {l Wrote}:I don't care if the track is supposed to be indoor or outdoor. I care if it's enjoyable to drive on it, and yours is not.

Alayan, the track is supposed to be indoor, so the design is defined with this goal in mind. Again: the shape of the track was intentional. I had to put things in a small space inside two routes, so, that's the way I found.

I like logic, always. All my projects have logic. A project of a track inside a stadium should be logical as the real one should be: all the stitches should be visible by the public there and lanes suspended over nothing and permanent structures should not exist. So, I tried to create something that remembers a stadium temporarily used as kartodrome. Something thus:

Real life
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM61LBqsAAo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6qLe673mcA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fdnoF98snw

Game
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3igY5VYJdwQ


Alayan {l Wrote}:2)The left road is very simple, it's a rectangle with round corners. Not really challenging or interesting.

It seems like we're not talking about the same track. The left lane has a bridge and a spiral with 360, that requires some skill. Is this your concept of rectangle? Is this what you call uninteresting and without challenge?

The right lane has three jumps.

Jumps
Alayan {l Wrote}:3)The jumps on the right road are awfully calibrated

You certainly have no idea about the difficulty to calibrate the force.

By my demand, the ramps should have the same height on both sides. Why? Because, due to the demands of the game, the tracks must allow both directions: normal and reverse. So the only way to make it possible is to keep both ramps at the same height or use a feature called cannon to drive the kart from the lowest to the highest ramp. We did not find a way to make the cannon run properly in reverse. Low intensity made the go-kart not jump and high intensity made the kart uncontrolled in the air. So I chose not to use the cannon. So, the jumps, in both directions, should be made with the speed of impulse obtained with the zippers. There came the main problem again for the same reason: low intensity did not give impulse for the kart to get to the other side when the player drove at the beginner level, which has very low speeds. At the supertux level, the karts passed the gap between each two ramps and "landed" on the lane long after the end of the opposite ramp. How do you manage this? It was extremely difficult and we found the best balance point. In fact, we have managed to get the only adjustment that allowed all 20 karts to jump both ways on all levels of difficulty. How can you say that they are "awfully calibrated" if you cannot imagine the difficulty that existed to calibrate?

Alayan {l Wrote}:1)The alternative routes represents something like 90% of the track's length.

There is no alternative route on this track Las Dunas Stadium. My idea was to make the only track of the STK with two paths each one with the same length and duration. One of them has a bridge and a spiral and the other, three jumps and more difficult curves. It's balanced, IMO. It is not the best thing that could be done within the space of a stadium and it is not the best thing that I could have created, but it was the one that I decided to create. Maybe I have had a bad taste in your opinion and some others, but in the opinion of others, the forms of the two tracks are ok.



Good Examples. We may learn from them
Alayan {l Wrote}:"The Old Mine or The Lost Chasm to get a better idea of ​​how a track can be challenging but fair, rewarding skillful driving."

Sorry who made both, but none of them are among my favorites, so we came back to the question of personal taste. For you, these two are great examples; for me, they are not. Not bad tracks, but not one of my preferred.

It would be great driving on a track made by you. I am waiting for your perfect design track so I can take note and learn from it. However, it's best not to waste time on this useless task for three reasons:

1. I have already learned and improved my new projects;
2. Making a track requires a lot of time. Much longer than simply posting reviews; and
3. You will lose a lot of time and will have the displeasure to see your work of months suffering an attempt of destruction by a phrase that takes 30 seconds to write.
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