FreeGameDev

This is a continuation of another post in the FreeGame general area.

in reply to Auria:

For a start, I think one song we really need to improve is the jungle track sound. So if you are interested in providing something for this track (other ideas include a more egyptian song for the pyramid track, an original song for XR591 or our title screen, a less repetitive song for the subsea track, a new song for the Black Mansion [halloween] track, a song for the minigolf track

I work best under commission, so let's take one track at a time and see how it progresses. Things I need to know:

1.- When you say improvement of the jungle track do you mean re-arranging it or a new piece?
2.- I have read the style guidelines so I understand some bits e.g. 2 mins maximum, light and melodic and as much variation as possible within the restriction. But what format do the tracks need to be? Do they need to be a loop or do you sort that out when you include it in the game?

I'll have more questions but it will depend on the answer of number 1.

PS: I don't know about changing the title screen track, it's quite funny and appropriate. But if you insist I could have a think about it.

Bollen {l Wrote}:But what format do the tracks need to be? Do they need to be a loop or do you sort that out when you include it in the game?

.ogg
looping is preferred I think, but I am not sure on that.

Welcome! Glad to see your offer and we would really like the music of SuperTuxKart to improve along with the rest of the game, so any contributions are welcome.
I think I can answer some of these questions, but Auria has the final word on it anyhow.

2 mins. is not a hard limit, but it should preferably not be much over that. As ctdabomb says, we use OGG Vorbis for the in-game music, but we prefer to have a lossless version (FLAC or WAV) as well in case we ever need to re-export it for some reason.
Loopable music was and may still be preferred, but there is not much of our current music that adhere to this, so being loopable is also not a hard limit.

When it comes to the title screen track, our desire to replace it comes mostly from a somewhat ambigous situation where it was licensed as CC-BY-SA on the site we got it from, but then later removed and our attempts at contacting the artist yielded no answers. So to be on the safe side we seek to replace it if we can get a good replacement.

OK, I understand. I'll focus on the main track next. For the moment I'd like to think about Jungle track...

If the community would be nice enough to give me as many ideas as possible as to what they would like to hear it would be great. At the moment it has kind of a poppy tune. I was thinking it might be more appropriate to have something more "ethnic" e.g. some native drums and chants or maybe whistles/pan flutes...?

We are talking about Amazonian Journey track right? And the tune Amazon Jungle?

Bollen {l Wrote}:We are talking about Amazonian Journey track right? And the tune Amazon Jungle?

yes

Bollen {l Wrote}:I was thinking it might be more appropriate to have something more "ethnic" e.g. some native drums and chants or maybe whistles/pan flutes...?

i was thinking that also, but maybe sort of like secret garden song? with like the wind and echo-ie stuff

Cool.. Now, since it's an Amazonian jungle as opposed to an African maybe it should have more Latin-American instrumentation? Specially Brazilian...?

Furthermore, I know it's usually programmed to have only one tune per track, but I think it would be good if we could have a different loop (variation of the same one) for the last lap. Something to mount tension...? Is this possible?

Bollen {l Wrote}:Cool.. Now, since it's an Amazonian jungle as opposed to an African maybe it should have more Latin-American instrumentation? Specially Brazilian...?

your the artist so that is your choice. (note: I am not an STK dev, just an enthusiast)

Bollen {l Wrote}:Furthermore, I know it's usually programmed to have only one tune per track, but I think it would be good if we could have a different loop (variation of the same one) for the last lap. Something to mount tension...? Is this possible?

right now I Don't think that that is possible unless the song is really long to last the entire race.


if you have more to discuss or want people's opinions maybe you should ALSO ask on irc: http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=stk&uio=d4
or the #stk channel on freenode

Bollen {l Wrote}:Furthermore, I know it's usually programmed to have only one tune per track, but I think it would be good if we could have a different loop (variation of the same one) for the last lap. Something to mount tension...? Is this possible?

I know what he's talking about - for example, in Mario Kart Wii, the music loop in the last lap is the same tune, just sped up, which effectively makes it much more frantic.

You could try to do the same thing here - though you should see how the original loop turns out first, before you think about modding it for the last lap

Auria {l Wrote}:(...) a new song for the Black Mansion [halloween] track, (...)

May I suggest Deutsch 931:

Furthermore, I know it's usually programmed to have only one tune per track, but I think it would be good if we could have a different loop (variation of the same one) for the last lap. Something to mount tension...? Is this possible?

This used to be possible, but it was not much in use since we for a large part have relied on freely licensed music on other sites, and thus did not have many frantic variations to use on last laps. So support for this was dropped, partly because it was not practical to get the necessary extra variations, partly because download size would increase, and partly because it didn't add that much to the game.

To be honest I believe getting better music for more tracks is more important than spending extra time on creating additional tension on last laps. Not to mention some tracks, for example Amazonian Journey, are so long 2 laps is usually enough, and having another variation play for half the race time on a track would make people lose any extra tension it would otherwise create.

Anyway, I am not deciding for or against (that's for Auria and hiker to decide since they are the project leaders); I am just coming with a few observations on why I think effort should be concentrated on making one good music track for each game track.

Yes I think we need a totally new song, not a remix, and I would indeed like it more 'ethnic'

And Arthur got it right, we have little interest in different last lap songs, primarily due to download size. In games like Mario Kart, I believe the music is rendered in real-time using a midi-like sequencer, so in that case it's easier to increase the rythm or change instruments. Since we're using pre-rendered ogg files, it's not as simple for us

OK, thanks everyone. I will get to work and I'll be back when I have something to show....

Hi,

sorry for the delay in answering, I am traveling atm.

Bollen {l Wrote}:Furthermore, I know it's usually programmed to have only one tune per track, but I think it would be good if we could have a different loop (variation of the same one) for the last lap. Something to mount tension...? Is this possible?

I always wanted to have this, and (afaik) support for this is still in STK and should work: The music-information files used in STK support two file names: one for the normal music, and one for the last lap/fast music. So if we have two versions of a song, we just need to specify both names, and all should work (btw, we even tried to adjust the pitch to automatically create faster music, bu the quality wasn't good enough).

On the other hand there is the mystical (i.e. not firmly defined) package size limit, which might make it impractical to include two versions of each song. My idea is that we can supply an additional audio package (either via the existing addon-server, or as a separate package), which would include the additional fast music for people who prefers this. But we will look at this once we actually have 'too much' music. This could also mean that we might have more than one music for a track (though I am not sure if this is a good idea, but again STK already supports this).

So, if you feel like it go ahead and create two versions of any songs you do

Cheers,
Joerg

Hello again! So I have the first sample for Amazonian Journey. Where should I post it?

Bollen {l Wrote}:Hello again! So I have the first sample for Amazonian Journey. Where should I post it?

Why not upload it here?

D'oh! I just realized the attachment tab below.... Double d'oh!

OK, so don't be kind just because I'm doing it for free. I much prefer to make a piece that everybody's happy with and also captures the spirit of the track....

note: this is a rough copy, not the final mix

Hi,

this is a very nice start but I think the vocals are perhaps a little too prominent? So maybe the song can be remized a little so that the vocals are somewhat softer. And just an idea, you decide if it's good or not : moving a part of the melody (30 seconds to 1 minute?) to a flute could help make the song more varied, too?

keep up the nice work, I really think this has potential with a few tweaks!

Hello Auria, thank you for your comments. As I said in my post this is a rough sample. I don't want to go through the hassle of mixing until we have a piece everybody likes. So the final product will sound much nicer.

Concerning your comments:

1.- The melody never actually repeats. There are 5 different motifs (melodic cells), the first one actually only plays twice as an intro. The other 4 only play once in their original form and then they are varied each time. I looked at quite a few Amazonian chants to get a reference, but they're all quite repetitive and monotonous. But when I tried too much variation it ended loosing its "ethnic" feel.

2.- I did try the flutes to begin with (leaving vocals in the background for support), but it sounded a bit cheesy. But I'll go back to that idea if you prefer and post a new file

Oh and by the way, I also uploaded it on youtube for people to see it in-game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkfQuog4Czo&feature=youtu.be

ok, thanks for the clarification. Now when I said 'repetitive', I did not necessarily mean ' the same notes are played', but just that in general it sounds similar. I personally think that losing some 'ethnicity' is worth it to make the sound more varied.

Other ideas to explore could include more variations in the percussions maybe? And maybe even screams from jungle animals but that is just an idea

Though that's all minor adjustments because as I said I like how it's shaping

Great, I'll get to work asap. I have a busy week so might not be able to provide something till the weekend. Your comments are really helping me understand the philosophy of the music, when I started working on it I only considered that a player might want to race for more than 2 laps, which would mean he/she would have to listen to the music again. But now I understand that they will also want to race the same track many more times in their lives, consequently the music needs to be as varied as possible... Hmmm... Yes I get it. I was worried with putting too much (musical) information in the space of 2 minutes and basically saturating it, but actually in the context of a game this does not matter...

Quite a learning experience really, I'm grateful for the opportunity!

I just noticed the track and watched the video. My impression is that it does not fit SuperTuxKart. Note: I lack music knowledge and language skills to give good music criticism.

The music brings real-life indigenous/ancient people to mind and how they dance and sing. This is in contrast to the cartoon style game. This is a problem because the impressions about the people are very dominant.

Voice is a concept that is not in STK (and in my humble opinion would only drag STK into the uncanny valley, if added). I believe the voice should be removed from this track to be useful for STK completely. Very subtle animal sounds maybe (maybe not).

I believe the best way to set a jungle/tribes/indegenous musical feel is by using specific instruments. Take for example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVjk9iBUuU4

"uncanny valley" what an interesting concept... Well, better play it safe! I'll try re-writing the same piece with flutes or something and make two versions, one with animal sounds and one without and perhaps a different one all together. Continuing in the spirit of the comments: we must be very careful not to confuse African jungle with Amazonian... It could be offensive.

Personally I don't mind the vocals too much, but like Auria, I think they could be toned down a bit and another instrument could be used to create an instrumental lead for variation. You are right in your assessment: the music will be heard over and over again, and thus, variating the piece is important. Not to the point some jazz styles are doing it, but in my opinion STK's music tracks would preferably have two leads plus a "chorus" (not with singing; chanting is another matter) instead of just one lead melody and a chorus. The leads don't neccessarily have to be played with different instruments or be hugely different from each other, but just creating a "three part" tune instead of a two part tune would be beneficial.

So e.g. instead of a [melody]->[chorus]->[melody] or [melody]->[chorus]->[melody]->[chorus] pattern, you could try something like [1st. melody]->[chorus]->[1st. melody]->[2. melody]->[chorus] pattern. You've already got something like that going in your track, but the chants are not too good at creating a distinct melody, so even though the variation is there, it's not as easy to hear the progression throughout it. It kinda blends in too much with itself. So introducing a more distinct instrumental melody would be a good idea, either supplementary to the chanting melody or more prominently taking over the general soundscape. You could experiment with both if you want to, but I am certain you will manage to make something good out of it. You have already impressed us, so if you add some more distinct variation throughout the track we will most likely be happy with the result.

Hello community! I'm terribly sorry for taking this long to come back. I got absolutely flooded with work all of a sudden and have barely been at home. Anyway, I've managed to work on a new piece for Amazon Journey.

Video can be found here: http://youtu.be/etCV3HJzAbc

And I attach the file just in case.

I eagerly await your comments...