Minigolf for STK 2.0

[kimden]

I agree with Sven's notes above.

I cannot test the lap times right now due to my own issues, but I took a look at checklines and I have to say there should be about twice as many of them (+ some of them should be doubled to make them higher). I can quite easily skip the chicane one and the two checklines in the tunnel (even though, of course, it makes me fly in a funny way, but new players tend to do that anyway, especially with climbing the walls). I don't see the reason to not put more of them, as in the bridge section they are every 10 meters anyway.

Also the distance between the start and the first checkline is around 2x compared to current version, and combined with the existing cut, that could create a big exploiting opportunity.

Unfortunately, it doesn't look like it will be a track to pick light karts on. Chicane will make them a bit faster than in Volcan Island of course but as it's tilted, it wouldn't make a big difference.

edit: for the reference, here's how you can skip the checklines

[rubberduck]

The most important thing is the split path section after the pipe tunnel. This section looks really empty and could definitely get improved by adding some more details.
There are also some parts were the texture tiling clearly shows it would be nice if that could be hidden a bit better.

I planned to rework this area too, my thought was adding some sort of waterfall / river going down on the right side of that area, down under road and later into the lake. more underground too.
I will see how it looks and maybe post a screenshot of the unfinished version to show the idea better.

Some of the other issues I noticed too, especially the small gap, and the issue with the end cameras.

[rubberduck]

I want to share some more images now, a new version is coming soon.
I mainly worked on the cave segment, and a bit on vegetation, where I removed old and I could even add a bit more of the new one, not too much though.

[rubberduck]

I have a new version now

https://sebastianplaten.lima-city.de/ST ... gen_v8.zip

I remade the cave part, and much more. I also removed the end cameras for now. I had them improved a lot though, at least without AI karts it worked really well, but then with AI it was much worse again, so I removed them
I think it gets very close now, what do you think?

[kimden]

Thanks for checklines, I don't know how to bypass them, except for the cave ones - it seems that if you go on the right side of the right path and try to go a bit to the right without touching the object there, it visibly crosses the edge of the checkline, but it doesn't count. Most of the time the kart ends up being rescued, but I managed to continue the lap at least twice in 10 minutes testing, so I guess it is still possible to miss it. Good job though


I like graphics more too but I guess I'm less an expert in that

[rubberduck]

yeah, that should be easy to fix with the cave check lines. I also noticed it yesterday when improving the drivelines a bit more (ai could be around 1-1.5 seconds faster per round), that once an ai kart missed a checkline, it could have ended in first or second rank but was last.

For graphics I wait for more feedback from others. The cave was really a long and difficult part, with the transition between the road and the rock areas.

I am doing really minor things now, checking again for holes, seams and distorted UVs, especially when I now start updating the easter egg hunt mode, since the track has changed a lot
This includes visual fixes in areas where you don't drive in regular race, which I have not checked fully.
I have already made it so that you can drive for example in the water without a reset in easter egg mode. so there will be definitly some hidden, at least in hard mode.

Maybe I add a particle effect at the waterfall inside the cave too, it shouldn't be too large though. Once I had one in copied from another track, but that was covering so much.

So a final version is coming soon, but at least before some sort of RC release version, where you should try out easter egg hunting.

[eltomito]

The exit from the second tunnel where the path splits is much cleaner now and it's actually pleasant to drive in that section. Great job!

Visually, the first tunnel is maybe a bit too bland. Could there be, perhaps, some fungus on the walls where there is a little water leak (there always is in tunnels!) or maybe a bunch of stones fallen out of the wall/ceiling making a little heap of rubble on the floor that you have to avoid?

[Polo10]

Hello,
I think the track is magnificent. You can see that it has been given special attention. Frankly, bravo rubberduck.
As for the section of pipe at the end, I find the waterfall a bit lonely as decoration. Couldn't we add a few precious stones? Or more water on the walls like in the caves? I agree with Eltomito too.
Have a nice day!

[rubberduck]

The exit from the second tunnel where the path splits is much cleaner now and it's actually pleasant to drive in that section. Great job!

Visually, the first tunnel is maybe a bit too bland. Could there be, perhaps, some fungus on the walls where there is a little water leak (there always is in tunnels!) or maybe a bunch of stones fallen out of the wall/ceiling making a little heap of rubble on the floor that you have to avoid?

I worked on this now, a few stones on the ground, turned one nitro into a big, which is a bit tricky to collect.
Also the last light is flickering now.
Do you like it, or is the leaking bit too much / too strong?

Hello,
I think the track is magnificent. You can see that it has been given special attention. Frankly, bravo rubberduck.
As for the section of pipe at the end, I find the waterfall a bit lonely as decoration. Couldn't we add a few precious stones? Or more water on the walls like in the caves? I agree with Eltomito too.
Have a nice day!

This is coming next, I already planned to add more decorations in the cave, updating it to this level was quite time consuming, so I didn't get to it yet.

[s3boun3t]

wow superb map
I just tried it, it is very beautiful
however I find it simpler than the original and with its long straight lines, it takes away from the interest of light karts.
why not make the windmill blades an obstacle in front of the door?

[rubberduck]

here I have it, the first RC, RC1
https://sebastianplaten.lima-city.de/ST ... en_RC1.zip

go test it, including reverse and especially easter egg hunt mode

[QwertyChouskie]

One time when going across the tiny bridge after the first tunnel, my kart got fully stopped by some weird collision. Might want to check for gaps/etc. Also some hills in the road are still a little too low-poly for my liking, making driving over them feel bumpy. (I did notice the track doesn't use the `smooth_normals` option, if enabling that is a possibility, it would almost certainly help smooth these bumps out some even without adding more polys.)

[kimden]

Weren't some standard tracks like scotland too bumpy with strange collisions when having smooth normals, thus it was removed from them after some time?

[SvenAndreasBelting]

Weren't some standard tracks like scotland too bumpy with strange collisions when having smooth normals, thus it was removed from them after some time?

Yeah it's usually never a good idea to use smooth normals, as it sometimes creates weird collision glitches.

I agree with Qwerty though that some parts of the track still feel a bit rough to drive, and could use some additional smoothing.

In my experience it helps to add a "triangulate modifier" to the road parts of the track. That makes it way easier to spot the bumpy parts of the road (and also don't use smooth shading). Just as a little trick

[rubberduck]

ok, I will check it when I have time again, I was and still am busy with other things.

I noticed the issue with stopping before the bridge too, randomly and very annoying when it happens.

Using the triangulate modifier temporarily to detect bumpy road segments could work too, without smooth shading. Just add some more loops and check that it is smooth, right?

[NickerAban]

I think there is a big one for track 2x?

[Alayan]

Unfortunately, I wasn't around when most of the discussion and work around this New Minigolf was happening.

There are interesting elements in the new version, but overall I don't really like it. I feel it changes the spirit of the track too much, while not addressing some of the core issues that exist in the 1.0 version. I'm not going to comment on item placements because these are easily changed. I'm not going to comment on graphics either.

Here are some comments :
- The start line configuration is largely the same as in 1.0. Unfortunately, a strong curve so soon after the start invariably leads to A LOT of crashes as soon as you get more than a couple of players. This can make someone lose a lot of time very early on, and it's very random, because you cannot reasonably anticipate how the other players are going to drive there. Fortunately, moving the start line back 3 or 4 "green squares" back would attenuate the issue a lot. Unfortunately, it doesn't play very nice with the minigolf hole.
- The jump before the tunnel is now very weak. I can appreciate that this makes the driving more reliable, but jumps are fun and I think a couple of them can participate in making Minigolf different from other tracks as well as fun.
- I don't really mind the changes to the tunnel area, I'd say it is overall better.
- The small bridge is still problematic, with higher speeds I hear a crashing sound and the jumping/colliding can be quite unpredictable. Although this might not be entirely on the track, this is an issue.
- The Minigolf ball obstacle is just as bad as in 1.X, and it is probably the worst thing about the 1.X version of the track. I can appreciate the effort that went into making the ball jump from one side to another, unfortunately it doesn't solve the core issues. Firstly, the ball jumping in the air is completely out of frame as soon as you get into the banked curve. Secondly, there is quite a delay between the end of the ball jump and it coming out, so it makes this visual cue even more limited. You still cannot see the ball coming. Thirdly, and I think this is actually the most important, the way the ball crosses the track is exactly the same as in the 1.0 version, and that was just bad. Essentially, there are timings where you cannot cross the minigolf ball path at all, because the minigolf ball is so fast it is hardly dodgeable. The only solution, if you know it's about to come, is to brake. Whereas 90% of the time you just ignore it and do as if it was not there, 10% of the time you are forced to lose time either by braking or worse by hitting the ball. It feels random and it is fundamentally unfair. I think a much deeper redesign of where the ball comes from, where it is going to, and where on the track it rolls is warranted, in order to achieve (1) making it easier to see before it becomes a threat (2) making it a more consistent threat that needs to be accounted in trajectory planning (reduce the "90% of the time you just ignore it" element) (3) making it dodgeable without braking or taking a much worse path. Compare with MK DS Waluigi Pinball's balls track obstacles.
- I miss the "one road above, one road below" track section that exist in the 1.0 version. It could have taken a redesign (and a tweak to item placements), But I found it interesting and, provided that there is more incentive to use both roads, rather fun.
- The loop is pretty cool, although I'm not too fond of the possibility to just stop there upside down. Adding a ground zipper all along would solve it, but while that design works well in many track theming that could use loops, it would be strange here.
- I don't mind too much the tweaks to the section leading to the bridge and to the start of the mill.
- However, I'm really disappointed by the final section between the mill and the start line. What I expect from Minigolf are some tricky curves or jumps, if possible in a layout that matches some popular minigolf layouts. Instead, it is a grey tube with magnetic roads into a normal grey road and a magnetic grey road. The theming feels strange, but worst for me is the gameplay. I don't like the random upside-down driving and you don't really need to turn much. A 2.0 heavy (worse turning than 1.0 heavy) can just cruise through this section without any worry.
- And the final spot that feels like it could be a jump is designed to actually avoid karts jumping.
- Regarding the overall track length, it feels rather good.

Perhaps the track could be divided in multiple parts each with its hole, and on some of these parts you'd have minigolf ball following the same road as the karts and being a threat.