New kart: Delorean Time Machine

New kart: Delorean Time Machine

Postby AronHUN » 20 Jan 2021, 09:57

Dear all!

I've just finished a new kart modeled after the car from Back To The Future. It's quite elaborate, consisting of 181 831 triangles:

front.jpg
front


rear.jpg
rear


My question is, can I upload the source or playable version of this kart either here or to https://online.supertuxkart.net/ in order to be included in the game? Is it legal? Isn't it a copyright infringement?

Thank you in advance.
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Re: New kart: Delorean Time Machine

Postby KiyanTheBluePenguin » 20 Jan 2021, 18:44

Well I Can Say That This Looks Cool.
I Would Play With It,
But Who Knows What COULD Happen.

Look, I'm Not A Dev Who Works On The Game.
All I Do Is Play The Game, Ok?
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Re: New kart: Delorean Time Machine

Postby XGhost » 20 Jan 2021, 23:45

AronHUN {l Wrote}:My question is, can I upload the source or playable version of this kart either here or to https://online.supertuxkart.net/ in order to be included in the game? Is it legal? Isn't it a copyright infringement?

You're free to upload the kart to the add-ons repository: https://online.supertuxkart.net/. Make sure you do license your work under an appropriate license (like Creative Commons). After that, players are able to find the kart through the add-ons menu in the game. You don't have to worry about trademark/copyright for the representation of the DeLorean from BTTF too much. Subjects like these, by now, are part of today's pop culture. Taking inspiration from and/or replicate them isn't really a problem as STK does not follow a commercial intend. With that out of the way:

  • The decision to include your work into the official main game is up to the main devs of the project. That will likely not happen, mostly because it would break the main style of the game (STK's racers are open-source mascots).
  • If you have not modeled the asset by yourself or parts of it, then that's a completely different story: you'll have to make sure that you do have the artistic rights to use the model and mention attribution in your license if necessary. This is independent of what the model actually portrays -> it's about copyright to the original artist.
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Re: New kart: Delorean Time Machine

Postby tempAnon093 » 22 Jan 2021, 09:05

XGhost {l Wrote}:The decision to include your work into the official main game is up to the main devs of the project.

Just to be clear, I think this part is about being in the core game. You will still be be able to upload to the add-ons which can be downloaded in-game, even if it doesn't fit the 'main game' style.
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Re: New kart: Delorean Time Machine

Postby KiyanTheBluePenguin » 22 Jan 2021, 16:45

I Just Thought Of An Idea For The Story Mode:
How About Time Portals?
Like The Future And The Past. It'd Be Cool,
Just Sayin.
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Re: New kart: Delorean Time Machine

Postby SvenAndreasBelting » 22 Jan 2021, 17:30

AronHUN {l Wrote}:Dear all!

I've just finished a new kart modeled after the car from Back To The Future. It's quite elaborate, consisting of 181 831 triangles:


Hi it's nice to see new people working on tracks and karts :)

I think XGohst already answered the questions about copyright.

The kart looks nice so far but before you upload your kart as an Add-on I would highly recommend to reduce the polycount 181 831 triangles is more than a lot of tracks have and I'm not sure if it would cause problems on weaker hardware if used online. And usually karts shouldn't have more than 20-30k triangles

You can try to use the decimate modifier or to manually reduce the amount of triangles. You can find a lot of retopology tutorials on YouTube for example.
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Re: New kart: Delorean Time Machine

Postby KiyanTheBluePenguin » 22 Jan 2021, 20:15

SvenAndreasBelting {l Wrote}:
AronHUN {l Wrote}:Dear all!

I've just finished a new kart modeled after the car from Back To The Future. It's quite elaborate, consisting of 181 831 triangles:


Hi it's nice to see new people working on tracks and karts :)

I think XGohst already answered the questions about copyright.

The kart looks nice so far but before you upload your kart as an Add-on I would highly recommend to reduce the polycount 181 831 triangles is more than a lot of tracks have and I'm not sure if it would cause problems on weaker hardware if used online. And usually karts shouldn't have more than 20-30k triangles

You can try to use the decimate modifier or to manually reduce the amount of triangles. You can find a lot of retopology tutorials on YouTube for example.


I Just Like That We Are Now Making Cars Refrencing Movies, Game etc. Yeah.
I Like Refrences, Ok?
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Re: New kart: Delorean Time Machine

Postby tempAnon093 » 24 Jan 2021, 04:24

KiyanTheBluePenguin {l Wrote}:I Just Like That We Are Now Making Cars Refrencing Movies, Game etc. Yeah.
I Like Refrences, Ok?

I do not understand how this replies to the comment you quoted.
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Re: New kart: Delorean Time Machine

Postby drummyfish » 24 Jan 2021, 11:07

XGhost {l Wrote}:You don't have to worry about trademark/copyright for the representation of the DeLorean from BTTF too much. Subjects like these, by now, are part of today's pop culture. Taking inspiration from and/or replicate them isn't really a problem as STK does not follow a commercial intend.


No, this simply isn't true, the car is very clearly an infringement on copyright beyond simple inspiration and maybe also be of trademark, the fact that this is part of pop culture means literally nothing, I don't know where you got his information from, but don't spread misinformation, please. Whether someone will sue you is another thing -- most likely no one will, but it still IS infringing and if things like these are included in a libre game, it stop being a libre game. Free culture does not allow fair use of copyrighted material.

Now it may be okay to include this in some separate addon repository if that is separate from the main game and which is not itself free, and it's true no one will probably get sued for this, but from your reply it seems like you're telling people some form of fair use based on "it's part of pop culture" is okay within free culture. This is untrue.
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Re: New kart: Delorean Time Machine

Postby KiyanTheBluePenguin » 24 Jan 2021, 15:53

Ok,
I Have A Beeg Problem,
That Being That EVERYONE Is Saying Mixed Things.
Like Some Say It Infringes Copyright,
Others Say It Doesn't,
It's An Hole Mess.

There's Two Options In A Deal Like This.
Option A: You Upload It And Hope For The Best.
Option B: You Don't Upload It Due To Copyright.

It's That Simple.
One Of The Options Can Be Choosen.

I Bet You,
There's Some Karts That You Can't Get In Any Way, Shape Or Form Due To Them Not Being Downloadeble.
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Re: New kart: Delorean Time Machine

Postby drummyfish » 24 Jan 2021, 16:33

I also see a third option: I'd modify the kart a bit to be less similar to the original, while it can still keep a reference to it. I am aware this is not easy (definitely don't name it Delorean tho), but blame the insane copyright laws for this trouble. Basically my guideline for these inspirations would be to imagine the "worst" case scenario: imagine this gets into the game, then someone starts using this commercially and for some reason it will be very clear he made a lot of money thanks to this kart specifically -- do you think the person would be reasonably safe from legal trouble from the creators of the original in this situation? When the answer is basically yes, then it's okay to be included.
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Re: New kart: Delorean Time Machine

Postby AronHUN » 24 Jan 2021, 17:48

Thank you for all the replies. I say especially thank @SvenAndreasBelting for the cool Youtube tutorial. Meanwhile I uploaded a new track called "Moebius track", and I'm currently working on simplifying this car to consist of less triangles and to alter clearly copyrighted components such as the licence plate and the brand sign. Then later I will decide what to do.
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Re: New kart: Delorean Time Machine

Postby KiyanTheBluePenguin » 24 Jan 2021, 23:27

Copyright Can Be A Big Annoyence,
Huh?
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Re: New kart: Delorean Time Machine

Postby tempAnon093 » 24 Jan 2021, 23:41

AronHUN {l Wrote}:Meanwhile I uploaded a new track called "Moebius track"

I have just tried it and it's excellent! I was expecting a simple Mobius band loop (like the existing Mobius Strip track or Umbilic Torus) but you've made a lovely, twisting driveline with a unique futuristic aesthetic to compliment the anti-gravity theme and show off the seeming-'other' side of the track. Great work :­)
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Re: New kart: Delorean Time Machine

Postby XGhost » 25 Jan 2021, 23:49

drummyfish {l Wrote}:
XGhost {l Wrote}:You don't have to worry about trademark/copyright for the representation of the DeLorean from BTTF too much. Subjects like these, by now, are part of today's pop culture. Taking inspiration from and/or replicate them isn't really a problem as STK does not follow a commercial intend.


No, this simply isn't true, the car is very clearly an infringement on copyright beyond simple inspiration and maybe also be of trademark, the fact that this is part of pop culture means literally nothing, I don't know where you got his information from, but don't spread misinformation, please. Whether someone will sue you is another thing -- most likely no one will, but it still IS infringing and if things like these are included in a libre game, it stop being a libre game. Free culture does not allow fair use of copyrighted material.

Now it may be okay to include this in some separate addon repository if that is separate from the main game and which is not itself free, and it's true no one will probably get sued for this, but from your reply it seems like you're telling people some form of fair use based on "it's part of pop culture" is okay within free culture. This is untrue.

As I am not thoroughly versed in different copyright laws in different parts of the earth I cannot argue from a legal standpoint in the case of the DeLorean. As far as I can see there is not really a legal problem as it is visible that the object is recreated version, inspired from the original for a purpose that follows no commercial intend. Yes the rights on the original design is not bought, but because the subject in question lies in the cultural domain this is a grey area. When I give a concert and playing a piece that a still living composer has written, I'm legally fine. Problems arise if I want to record and sell this concert.
But please, if you have your sources for disputing cultural rights share them, so I can educate myself, you may be right of course. This is not patent law, as I see it. Every artist that ever drew or modeled something owned by a company would by that logic commit copyright infringement which is just not the case and in this situation kinda disrespectful to the creator of the artwork, especially if it is created in the open domain.

I agree with you that we absolutely should be careful when it comes to implementing such contributions into the main game (if we want to support the 'libre' aspect of the game), I fail to see the problem for having cool add-ons though.

drummyfish {l Wrote}:imagine this gets into the game, then someone starts using this commercially and for some reason it will be very clear he made a lot of money thanks to this kart specifically

Also this makes no sense. The art (as I suggested) is protected under a free and open-source license. So yeah, if somebody sells the model; congratulations on finding someone willing to pay for something that is licensed to be open available. By specifying a appropriate license you guarantee and control the flow of distribution. In case of e.g. share-alike, your statement is never true.
Last edited by XGhost on 25 Jan 2021, 23:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New kart: Delorean Time Machine

Postby KiyanTheBluePenguin » 25 Jan 2021, 23:51

It Seems To Depend Where You Come From, Huh?

So That Means Something In Insert Country Here?
Look, I'm Not An Expert With Law.

(Although I Would Like To See A Trial To Know How It Looks)
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Re: New kart: Delorean Time Machine

Postby Jastiv » 02 Feb 2021, 20:52

I know in Minetest that they have things like the Pony Vanio, and other off brand items that somewhat resemble the brand name items. There is no reason why you can't have a similar looking car that is a bit different, something inspired by the Delorean, but not an exact copy of it, with obvious differences. Also, in Wograld I have a tombstone and zombie for Tyler Slow no guessing what pop culture icon I am poking fun of.
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Re: New kart: Delorean Time Machine

Postby AronHUN » 14 Feb 2021, 19:34

imagine the "worst" case scenario: imagine this gets into the game, then someone starts using this commercially and for some reason it will be very clear he made a lot of money thanks to this kart specifically

Thank you for all informations and feedbacks. I'm sorry, I won't upload this kart, because I found this on the forum: https://forum.freegamedev.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=16894
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Re: New kart: Delorean Time Machine

Postby eltomito » 15 Feb 2021, 00:17

AronHUN {l Wrote}:
imagine the "worst" case scenario: imagine this gets into the game, then someone starts using this commercially and for some reason it will be very clear he made a lot of money thanks to this kart specifically

Thank you for all informations and feedbacks. I'm sorry, I won't upload this kart, because I found this on the forum: https://forum.freegamedev.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=16894


I don't think you need to worry about that. IMHO only the uploader of the game who is trying to make money off of it would risk getting sued at all.
I even think that changing the name to something like LeDorean and making sure no trademarks are found on the model would be fine for all purposes.

That said, I kind of hate it that the kart addons are littered with random stuff that isn't based on any open source software mascots which is the idea of STK in the first place. I'd prefer all these other karts taken out of the official addon repo and moved somewhere else, so that whoever wanted to use them could configure another repository in STK and off you go but IMHO the default setup of the game shouldn't provide any access to these - not for legal reasons but to preserve the idea of STK. But that's just my 2 cents and I'm in no way affiliated with the dev team.
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