Racetrack (conversion)

[Pixel]

I hope it's alright if I start a thread about my progress on the Racetrack. I can keep it updated and plan
to ask questions here.

If anyone else is currently working on this track, please post here and I will take my name off the conversion
list.

Actually, I have a question already. How do I convert the .loc file to the new format? Or, how do I use blender to do the same?

Thank you.

[Auria]

Hi Pixel,

everything should be done from blender. I recommend reading the links at the top of the post about STK 0.7.

The race track is a little problematic for STK, unfortunately, because in this track it's very easy to take shortcuts (even accidentally, by flying over a "tire wall", etc...) Since 0.7 no more has the old shortcut detection code, but a new checkpoint approach that, while more reliable, doesn't allow as quick feedback to the user. I am not sure how to handle this track... invisible walls that block you from flying over tiny walls? would look weird. Making the walls higher? would look bad. leave it to the user to ask for a rescue when flying over a wall? they might get confused as to why their lap is not being counted since the checkline system has no automatic feedback. So this will require some serious thought

[Pixel]

The race track is a little problematic for STK, unfortunately, because in this track it's very easy to take shortcuts (even accidentally, by flying over a "tire wall", etc...) Since 0.7 no more has the old shortcut detection code, but a new checkpoint approach that, while more reliable, doesn't allow as quick feedback to the user. I am not sure how to handle this track... invisible walls that block you from flying over tiny walls? would look weird. Making the walls higher? would look bad. leave it to the user to ask for a rescue when flying over a wall? they might get confused as to why their lap is not being counted since the checkline system has no automatic feedback. So this will require some serious thought

Hello.

I don't have it quite where I want it to be to post a progress file.

I remember from 0.6, you could really cheat on this track. One could easily cheat without even trying, That is definitely something to work out.
The track itself may have to be partially reworked.

[Pixel]

I've tried defining a series of checklines, one activating the next, as the wiki describes on the track exporter page,
but they're not tripping any anti-cheat measures. Is the checkline system not ready/active in the alpha? I think I have
them all at z = 0. Could that be the problem?

[hiker]

I've tried defining a series of checklines, one activating the next, as the wiki describes on the track exporter page,
but they're not tripping any anti-cheat measures. Is the checkline system not ready/active in the alpha?

It should be working, but if you pick up the exporter from svn you will get a newer version, which automatically adds the lap counting line, which isn't documented yet. That change shouldn't make too much of a difference, but it could (never tested, will be done once I write the docs and put the script in the wiki).

You can check the scene.xml file for <checks> to see if everything is exported as you expect it to be (just post an excerpt here if you want me to have a look).

I intend to add some debugging support for check lines (e.g. print a message whenever any check lines are crossed), but that's not ready yet.

I think I have them all at z = 0. Could that be the problem?

It could - the height of the lines is used in determining if a kart crossed a line or not, too - so if lines are too low/too high, it won't be triggered.

Note that the check lines are not meant to prevent users from taking shortcuts. There is no feedback for the user if a check line is missed, so a missed check line will only be noticed when the lap counting line does not work, which is too late and would be very frustrating. So it's essential that tracks are designed so that unwanted shortcuts can not be taken.

Also the (new) race track has the problem that it is too big - it's the 2nd biggest .ac model, which makes this rather small track really slow. Imho this is something that should be fixed, too.

Cheers,
Joerg

[horace]

the tire stacks are a bit wasteful but otherwise the track isn't that high poly. maybe it would be better to use instancing for them now?

won't there be a new shortcut detection system? i think a working shortcut detection is important and i don't see why it wouldn't work for this track?

[Auria]

won't there be a new shortcut detection system? i think a working shortcut detection is important and i don't see why it wouldn't work for this track?

Not as in 0.6; the system we had proved to not detect some shortcuts, and had many false positives; we had many reports of users that were frustrated of being accused of taking shortcuts while they were only driving slightly off the road. 0.7 features a checkline system, which is more reliable, but also will not give immediate feedback or cause a rescue

[Pixel]

Note that the check lines are not meant to prevent users from taking shortcuts. There is no feedback for the user if a check line is missed, so a missed check line will only be noticed when the lap counting line does not work, which is too late and would be very frustrating. So it's essential that tracks are designed so that unwanted shortcuts can not be taken.

Oh, ok. I misinterpreted "shortcut" in the wiki to mean valid shortcuts (aka "alternate routes"), but right now there is no positive
feedback shortcut detection of any sort. I understand now. Sorry, I was reading the wiki wrong on that point.

As to an anti-cheat system, I think we should be able to define a polygon (or group of them) that when the kart crosses it/lands on it, an auto rescue is triggered. We
could have two type's - "shortcut not allowed" and "custom". "Custom" would allow a type with a custom text message (e.g. "Restricted Area - Keep Out").

Also, I think we should have a polygon/group that will trigger an auto-rescue if the kart goes OUTSIDE it.

We could then use short walls, and if a kart happens to stray, auto-rescue should take care of it.
Perhaps the polys could even be setup so they only trigger the auto-rescue if the kart comes
from a certain direction or side.

In MarioKart, going into an inappropriate area would usually trigger an auto-rescue. That seems like the simplest way to do it.

Also the (new) race track has the problem that it is too big - it's the 2nd biggest .ac model, which makes this rather small track really slow. Imho this is something that should be fixed, too.

Too big, how? Is the file size too big? Is it too high-poly? Are the dimensions of the model too big?

I think the track itself should be simplified somewhat, it's hard to make the curves even with tight-turning.

[Auria]

Too big, how? Is the file size too big? Is it too high-poly? Are the dimensions of the model too big?

High-poly (though file size is quite directly linked to polygon count)

[hiker]

Oh, ok. I misinterpreted "shortcut" in the wiki to mean valid shortcuts (aka "alternate routes"), but right now there is no positive
feedback shortcut detection of any sort. I understand now. Sorry, I was reading the wiki wrong on that point.

Could you please update the wiki - it's easy for me not to notice an ambiguity in what I write, so if you misread something we have to improve it

As to an anti-cheat system, I think we should be able to define a polygon (or group of them) that when the kart crosses it/lands on it, an auto rescue is triggered. We
could have two type's - "shortcut not allowed" and "custom". "Custom" would allow a type with a custom text message (e.g. "Restricted Area - Keep Out").

I was about to write: Read the wiki, that's already there ... but then realised that the 'reset' property is actually missing in the wiki. So I've updated the wiki now, you just have to set the textures to have the 'reset' property in the materials.xml file.

Also, I think we should have a polygon/group that will trigger an auto-rescue if the kart goes OUTSIDE it.

From feedback we had this auto-rescue is certainly not liked by people. I especially also could imagine additional game modes (e.g. search all hidden ... penguins, fish, dwarfs, rabbits, whatever) in all tracks, ...

We could then use short walls, and if a kart happens to stray, auto-rescue should take care of it.
Perhaps the polys could even be setup so they only trigger the auto-rescue if the kart comes
from a certain direction or side.

Again, based on feedback we had previously players hate this artificial restrictions - be it a harsh slowdown for being off track (though I would actually be in favour of this), or auto-rescue. That's why we decided to remove all kind of auto-detection/rescue system. The new checkline system is only meant to discourage really wrong shortcuts, e.g. driving a little circle to cross the start line over and over. Anything else should be handled by track design.

That's why I warned that the new racetrack has some issues. Blocking all potential shortcuts might be close to impossible - though just doing the major ones would be good enough (imho). The checklines could be used to force people driving over the bridge (perhaps adding some kind of visual hint).

In MarioKart, going into an inappropriate area would usually trigger an auto-rescue. That seems like the simplest way to do it.

Not in MK Wii (though I haven't played all tracks yet, I have never seen an auto-rescue ... well, except when falling down into water, void, lava, ... ).

Also the (new) race track has the problem that it is too big - it's the 2nd biggest .ac model, which makes this rather small track really slow. Imho this is something that should be fixed, too.

Too big, how? Is the file size too big? Is it too high-poly? Are the dimensions of the model too big?

Too many triangles for this kind of track. It takes a long time to load the track, and the fps rate is rather low. I had a quick look: the track has about 33000 vertices. 15000 are just in the tires along the track, another 8000 or so in the stadium, 2000 in the borders of the track.

Cheers,
Joerg

[Pixel]

Could you please update the wiki - it's easy for me not to notice an ambiguity in what I write, so if you misread something we have to improve it

I went back and checked the wiki. It's explained clearly. Either I wasn't paying attention when I first read it, or you updated it. Anyway, it looks fine now.

Again, based on feedback we had previously players hate this artificial restrictions - be it a harsh slowdown for being off track (though I would actually be in favour of this), or auto-rescue. That's why we decided to remove all kind of auto-detection/rescue system. The new checkline system is only meant to discourage really wrong shortcuts, e.g. driving a little circle to cross the start line over and over. Anything else should be handled by track design.

That's why I warned that the new racetrack has some issues. Blocking all potential shortcuts might be close to impossible - though just doing the major ones would be good enough (imho). The checklines could be used to force people driving over the bridge (perhaps adding some kind of visual hint).

Check lines could be used to trigger blocking devices, could they not?

Not in MK Wii (though I haven't played all tracks yet, I have never seen an auto-rescue ... well, except when falling down into water, void, lava, ... ).

I see. I don't have a Wii, I was thinking of Super MarioKart (Super NES) or maybe MK64.

Too many triangles for this kind of track. It takes a long time to load the track, and the fps rate is rather low. I had a quick look: the track has about 33000 vertices. 15000 are just in the tires along the track, another 8000 or so in the stadium, 2000 in the borders of the track.

I've been thinking about partially reworking the race-track anyway. May have to start clean over. I like the basic idea of the track, just needs to be simpler.

[hiker]

Check lines could be used to trigger blocking devices, could they not?

'Trigger' as in putting them in, making them visible, start an animations? None of that is supported yet, but if you need something like this it could be added.

Not in MK Wii (though I haven't played all tracks yet, I have never seen an auto-rescue ... well, except when falling down into water, void, lava, ... ).

I see. I don't have a Wii, I was thinking of Super MarioKart (Super NES) or maybe MK64.

I haven't played much MK64, and none of the others.

Too many triangles for this kind of track. It takes a long time to load the track, and the fps rate is rather low. I had a quick look: the track has about 33000 vertices. 15000 are just in the tires along the track, another 8000 or so in the stadium, 2000 in the borders of the track.

I've been thinking about partially reworking the race-track anyway. May have to start clean over. I like the basic idea of the track, just needs to be simpler.

Yes, I think that's actually a good idea. That track is just too twisted. There are also two older race tracks: the very old and very simple one, plus a modified version of this (with a bridge).

Looking forward to getting more tracks!

Cheers,
Joerg

[MCMic]

The best way for the racetrack would be that the grass slow down the kart, a lot, so it will be more efficient to use the road instead of shortcuts. Being auto-rescued for an invalid shortcut seems really weird, talking of mario kart, in mario kart you cannot use invalide shorcuts, because they don't exist, either there is a wall or a gap, or a ground that slow you down a lot.

So really, I think for racetrack, grass that slowdown and some little walls in the good places should be ok.

[sj04736]

I think that even if you just changed the elevation of certain parts of the track (i.e the part after a bend is higher than the track before it), it makes it so that there's a mini-cliff where the shortcut used to be, which would be impassable.

[Pixel]

I've been thinking, I need a strategy for this track, what I'm going to do first. Originally I was just going
to do a straight conversion, that's why I was asking about stopping shortcuts. Now, I see the track
will need more work. This is the approach I'm considering-

1. Simplify the track models (likely removing the stadium altogether, and simplifying the course
of the track itself.)
2. Texture the altered parts of the track itself.
3. Setup shortcut and lap cheat prevention. (I've got some great ideas from the posts, thanks. )
4. Layout track objects.

I might need some help with textures.

I've noticed that a lot of objects are being parented to an empty object in Blender (sometimes several to the same
empty object) Also, the Global Y and Z axis are sometimes switched (I think I'm still using the alpha release version of the scripts.)

Are those normal?

[Pixel]

I've been having serious problems editing the track mesh in Blender. Trying to use the Transform Properties menu resulted
in my object moving along the wrong global axis. I spent over an hour trying to figure it out. I finally found what I think is the
issue. When an AC3D object (mesh) is imported into Blender, it is parented to an empty. That empty is rotated 90 degrees along the (local, I
think) X axis, causing the object to have its local Z axis pointing along Blender's global Y.

Clearing the parent appears to be the solution. I'll do a little more checking to make sure this resolves the issue.

Has anyone else seen this problem? I would think so, it seems to be at the AC3D importer level.

I don't necessarily think there is a "bug" in the import script. AC3D uses a "Y axis up" coordinate system instead of
Blender's "Z axis up", and this I bet this is how the import script is designed to convert the object data between them.

AC3D Coordinate System

[horace]

why do you work with the ac3d file and not with the original blender file? with the blender file all the track curves still would be editable.

[Pixel]

I didn't make the track, I'm trying to modify it to work with STK 0.7. As far as I know, the original
.blend file is not available.

[hiker]

I didn't make the track, I'm trying to modify it to work with STK 0.7. As far as I know, the original
.blend file is not available.

It certainly is in our media repository (I mean the original .blend file).

Cheers,
Joerg

[horace]

i am the original author of the track and did send a zip that also contained the blender file to auria. isn't it in svn somewhere?

edit: hiker was faster...

[hiker]

i am the original author of the track and did send a zip that also contained the blender file to auria. isn't it in svn somewhere?

Beat you by a few minutes Here the svn url:
https://supertuxkart.svn.sourceforge.ne ... /racetrack

Cheers,
Joerg

[Auria]

By the way, Horace, if you have any free time, feel free to revisit your creations for 0.7 I'm especially thinking about City, which is not converted yet (and would require a couple modifications, like making the track wider and the slopes lees steep, and maybe shortening it a bit)
It's one of our best-looking tracks, so would be a shame to lost it because of track design weaknesses

[Pixel]

I see what happened. After your post asking me about the blend, I checked the repository, but
in the wrong part of it. Sorry about that.

Thank you hiker for locating it for me.


Horace, I'm sorry I didn't ask you about working on your track. I didn't remember which forum
member made the track. Would you rather I not work on it? If so, that's fine, but please let me
know so I know whether to continue.

[horace]

i don't mind if you work on the racetrack. i am looking forward to the new version.

yeah, the city track has some weaknesses. it was my first track and it mainly was a blender track making learning experience for me. i also really dislike my building models for example. this month i don't have enough time to work on it though. maybe next month. so actually i wouldn't mind if someone else worked on the city track...

i also would have many ideas for new tracks. if only i had more time.

[Pixel]

i don't mind if you work on the racetrack. i am looking forward to the new version.

Cool, thanks. I've downloaded the .blend file. I'm glad to have it- not only does it negate the need for dealing with imported AC3D,
I can see how you've used Blender to setup the track. I'm still a novice to Blender, and drawing from your knowledge will be very helpful.
Would it be alright if I ask you questions about using Blender from time to time?

yeah, the city track has some weaknesses. it was my first track and it mainly was a blender track making learning experience for me. i also really dislike my building models for example.

I like the City track a lot myself. Has a fun feel to it. I noticed you used European-style road signs. I'd had in mind integrating road signs into an original track I wanted to make. I did add a few to the Island track here while back. Great minds think alike.

i also would have many ideas for new tracks. if only i had more time.

I know the feeling. I wish I had the time for a few track ideas I have, as well. I wish I was better at Blender too- I was working on a kart, but I've had such a time learning
Blender I've stalled out on it. I think I'd rather build and/or modify tracks anyway.