Racetrack (conversion)

[Pixel]

Here's the first test of the racetrack conversion/mod. NOTE: It is EXTREMELY early in development- all it has is meshes
for the track course, ground, a few curb markers, and of course a drive-line. No lap-lines, items, or walls NOTE: One of
the curb markers is way off the ground, I'll have to fix that.

The main purpose of posting such an early version is because I want some opinions on the route of the track. I'm trying
to balance it so it won't be boring, but will still be easy to drive. One might need to make a tight turn in a couple
of places, but not many.

Also, there's an object on the track I don't recognize. I tried to remove all the other objects before exporting it,
but it still shows up in the game. I've included a screen shot below. Can someone tell me what it is?

[Auria]

Hum, looks like the magnet (but what the hell is it doing there...)
@Hiker: does the exporter has any support for putting external models?

[Pixel]

I found out what it is, it's a poly model I missed, one used for the "crowd". I should have check the outliner
more carefully, sorry about that.

You didn't tell me what you thought about the track route, did you like it?

[Auria]

I just tried it; the track is quite good and fun to drive, though I somewhat wonder how you will manage to put a stadium around that Or did you want to remove the stadium?

[Pixel]

I just tried it; the track is quite good and fun to drive,

I'm glad you like it.

though I somewhat wonder how you will manage to put a stadium around that Or did you want to remove the stadium?

One of Hiker's concerns is high poly-count. The stadium was a large contributor to that. I have in mind removing it, in favor
of two or three bleacher sets or separate grandstands at strategic points on the track. I want to keep some of the track's original flavor,
while having more flexibility with both track layout and poly count.

Once the track route is fully settled, I plan to start working on supporting layout (more ground, signs, etc.)

Here's a diagram of what I've got in mind thus far. The yellow and red boxes are the seating objects I mentioned above. The translucent
green is a rough approximation of new ground coverage. I don't yet know the final size and exact shape the seating objects will have,
it depends on what sort of poly count would likely result.

[hiker]

One of Hiker's concerns is high poly-count. The stadium was a large contributor to that. I have in mind removing it, in favor
of two or three bleacher sets or separate grandstands at strategic points on the track. I want to keep some of the track's original flavor,
while having more flexibility with both track layout and poly count.

I am not an artist - but shouldn't it be possible to replace the stadium with simple texture? I mean a bit like a sky cube (with perhaps a bit more modelling) - just with pictures of a crowed on it?

Cheers,
Joerg

[Pixel]

I've thought about that. I'm not sure I could make the texture look good; I'm really a novice when it comes to texturing.

I'm not against trying it, though I wonder if I could incorporate the new track route into it.

What if the stadium was around the lower part, like originally, and the crowd there could view action in the upper
part on a fairly large monitor? Would this idea work?

[Auria]

Another idea I had : it could be interesting to keep the original stadium by Horace, since it looked quite good; but remove the road and keep only the stadium, and use it as a battle arena. Since we have very few battle arenas it could be great. I could maybe look into making the battle stadium in addition to your racetrack (though if someone else can go ahead!)

[Pixel]

You mean, use my Racetrack mod without the stadium in the regular racing modes, and use just the stadium itself as a battle area?

I have no problems with that, in fact I like the idea quite a bit. I could work on clearing the stadium of road objects.

To confirm, is that the way the direction I should go?

[Auria]

You mean, use my Racetrack mod without the stadium in the regular racing modes, and use just the stadium itself as a battle area?

I have no problems with that, in fact I like the idea quite a bit. I could work on clearing the stadium of road objects.

To confirm, is that the way the direction I should go?

that was my idea ( now I'm not ordering you to do anything, it's just my idea )

[Pixel]

that was my idea ( now I'm not ordering you to do anything, it's just my idea )

I think it will works out well. I can easily implement my larger track route, and the stadium (which is impressive),
will still be part of the game.

I've almost got the stadium ready for arena modifications. The track exporter page doesn't appear to mention
arena tracks. How do I specify an arena track in the ID Property browser?

[hiker]

I've almost got the stadium ready for arena modifications. The track exporter page doesn't appear to mention
arena tracks. How do I specify an arena track in the ID Property browser?

Not at all yet For now you should be able to export the track normally, then modify the scene.xml file to include start positions:

{l Code}: {l Select All Code}

 <start x="61.815" y="70.136" z="-89.58" h="270" />


(though that might not be necessary to just see if it works, so perhaps for testing just leave it empty). Modify track.xml to include arena flag:

{l Code}: {l Select All Code}

<track  name        = "..."
            arena        = "true"
...


But I am not sure that arena tracks actually work in stk atm. Then again, without an arena it's difficult to test

So I'd suggest to make the arena track ready, add an id-property 'arena=true' and add empties for the start position (with properties type="start", and position="1" (2, 3, 4, ...)). I'll fix the track exporter later, and we can use your track as a test for stk. Just post the .blend here.

Cheers,
Joerg

[portets]

how about using the stadium to create a ancient rome-themed battle arena?

[asciimonster]

Another idea I had : it could be interesting to keep the original stadium by Horace, since it looked quite good; but remove the road and keep only the stadium, and use it as a battle arena. Since we have very few battle arenas it could be great. I could maybe look into making the battle stadium in addition to your racetrack (though if someone else can go ahead!)

My idea was to keep the arena, delete the track and insert a banked oval track. Then you could race nascar style. With plenty of nitro on the track karts will be weaving to grab nitro bottles while riding a wave of nitro... That would be fun.

Making the track bank without making it bumpy (unmached polygons) is the problem that kept me from continuing with it.

Since an oval track has a fence, you even could plot the stadium onto a spherical skybox. Due to the distance to the skybox, you could get away with it.

[Pixel]

I thought about banking the loop outside the main track. I tried a 30° bank, but the kart seemed to take issue with it. I may try 20°.

I wanted to ask about a possible feature inclusion, if it isn't already available. Would it be possible to have a texture that is invisible until
a kart touches it? Not just run over it, but if any part of a kart touches it. A timer property could be used to say how long the texture
stays visible after it's touched.

About "battle" mode - which axis of the empty points the direction the kart will initially face?

[hiker]

I thought about banking the loop outside the main track. I tried a 30° bank, but the kart seemed to take issue with it. I may try 20°.

After 0.7 I will be working on the physics, I already have some good ideas what might improve things. So those things should work then.

I wanted to ask about a possible feature inclusion, if it isn't already available. Would it be possible to have a texture that is invisible until
a kart touches it? Not just run over it, but if any part of a kart touches it. A timer property could be used to say how long the texture
stays visible after it's touched.

That would be very difficult. In STK we are using a raycast from the center of the kart to the ground to determine e.g. the terrain a kart is on. Getting from a collision back to what is actually there would be a rather big effort. What effect are you trying to reach - perhaps we can think of a better way?

About "battle" mode - which axis of the empty points the direction the kart will initially face?

Y is the forward axis.

Cheers,
Joerg

[Pixel]

After 0.7 I will be working on the physics, I already have some good ideas what might improve things. So those things should work then.

So, I should wait until after 0.7 to bank the loop?

That would be very difficult. In STK we are using a raycast from the center of the kart to the ground to determine e.g. the terrain a kart is on. Getting from a collision back to what is actually there would be a rather big effort. What effect are you trying to reach - perhaps we can think of a better way?

I've been thinking about shortcut prevention. Along the ground, slowing surfaces and low walls should generally work ok. Another issue has occurred to me though. When a
kart is hit by a weapon, it is often (pretty much always) thrown into the air. It could be thrown over a wall and onto another section of the track, either setting the player back
severely, or making the drive to the finish line much shorter. A pair of human players could work together to exploit this. To some extent, a track can be designed to avoid it,
but I feel at some point this would limit a track designer. High walls could block the view of the "spectators" along the side of the track. Invisible walls would look strange.

What I had in mind was a "force field" of sorts - if a kart hit one, it would show up briefly, and the kart would bounce back onto the part of the track it was already on.

My plan was to use a texture, laser beams weaved criss-crossed, that would only show up when hit. This way it wouldn't regularly interfere with the view of the track.

Y is the forward axis.

Ok, will incorporate. I'm actually trying to modify the stadium with enough (or close to enough) that it could be used as an actual track, as well as testing.

[Pixel]

UPDATE: I've slacked off on the Racetrack to work on the stadium as an arena track. I finally have it ready for testing.
Since it's basically another mod of the racetrack, I've posted it here.

NOTE: I've used the driveline from my racetrack mod to get the arena to load. Also, you will have to have to request a rescue
for your kart if you run without AI karts, because the starting position is inside an object. (the arena includes empties for
the normal battle mode starting positions)

I've had to ZIP the blend file, because the upload doesn't allow .blend files. I have no idea why. I've included an exported
track, which has the images the blend file needs. It's a TAR archive.

As far as the racetrack goes, I never heard back about the force field idea - is there no practical way to do it?

[Auria]

Good job with the arena! I'll need to check how to integrate it, and get battle mode working again.

@Hiker : does the exporter export start points for battle mode yet?

(@Pixel: about force field, I can't answer, Joerg is the physics expert here)

[hiker]

Good job with the arena! I'll need to check how to integrate it, and get battle mode working again.

@Hiker : does the exporter export start points for battle mode yet?

No, I'll fix this once I have the end-race animations in.

(@Pixel: about force field, I can't answer, Joerg is the physics expert here)

I don't fully understand this - once we have replaced the explosion, do we need this (till we officially support jumps from ramps)? I don't see a real need for this.

Cheers,
Joerg

[Pixel]

I don't fully understand this - ...do we need this (till we officially support jumps from ramps)? I don't see a real need for this.

My concern was that one kart could be blown over a wall by an explosion, and land on another section of the track, possibly losing (or gaining time) in the
process. I'd had the idea of the force field as a mostly visual effect applied to a very tall normally invisible wall. This way, the wall wouldn't regularly interfere with the view of the track, but if a kart hit the side of the wall, it would not just fall back for no apparent reason, the player could see why.

...once we have replaced the explosion,...

I remember reading that there would probably be more animation, and less physics. Is that going to include the way weapon(s) impact the targeted kart(s)?

[hiker]

Hi,

...

This way, the wall wouldn't regularly interfere with the view of the track, but if a kart hit the side of the wall, it would not just fall back for no apparent reason, the player could see why.

I think it would just look odd if a wall suddenly appears and disappears.

...once we have replaced the explosion,...

I remember reading that there would probably be more animation, and less physics. Is that going to include the way weapon(s) impact the targeted kart(s)?

Yes, whenever you are hit instead of blowing (more or less randomly) in the air, you will get a kind of animation (e.g. the kart might rotate on the spot, or perhaps do a simple straight up jump and rotate, or so) - but it will always be the same, taking the same time, and making sure that you end up at the same location.

Cheers,
Joerg

[Pixel]

I think it would just look odd if a wall suddenly appears and disappears.

I might have to fix up a normal transparent wall/texture to show my idea, but I may not need it now.

Yes, whenever you are hit instead of blowing (more or less randomly) in the air, you will get a kind of animation (e.g. the kart might rotate on the spot, or perhaps do a simple straight up jump and rotate, or so) - but it will always be the same, taking the same time, and making sure that you end up at the same location.

So that means I wouldn't have to worry about the kart going over walls?

[hiker]

So that means I wouldn't have to worry about the kart going over walls?

Correct - at least for now. Once we have implemented this we will see how it feels, we might have to revisit this. But considering that other kart games are handling things this way, I am pretty sure that we are heading in the right direction.

Cheers,
Joerg

[Auria]

Hi Pixel,

support for arenas is now back in SVN; I slightly your stadium arena and committed it to SVN