New Music

[Bollen]

(I'm a she and it's cool)

I fixed it! It's hard to tell from the pictures and the nicknames...

The drums from the intro are completely different. Different instrument, different groove, different rhythm so I'll need more to go on....

[Auria]

Hello Auria! I have to disagree, but I think I know what you mean... It's between 0:49 and 1:13? It calls too much attention to itself... If I am correct let me know, it'll take me a minute to re-write something more suitable.

The electronic thing will come down in the mix, don't worry about it...

PS: I would love to hear from Barsook... See if she likes the new drums better...

actually even the percussions that start around 0:24, I would ,ake them a little simpler personally for easy-listening game music. Similar rythmic is used in percussions throughout the song it seems to me. Maybe other people can voice their opinion.

Another thing I think that can be done very easily : I feel near the start the feeling is a little too uneasy for the grandiose nature of the subsea track. Solution? There are high-pitched "pings" around 0:03, 0:09, 0:15, 0:21. I would suggest adding a second lower note following that ping by a second or two, to resolve it. what do you think?

It's not easy for me to give a good review when I'm one of the few people reviewing!!
(PS: don't feel that I'm being harsh please!! I just love the part around 1:35)

PPS: Oh and yes, off-beat or upbeat are both correct... How do you say it french?

answer to PPS: "contre-temps"

[Barsook]

Another thing I think that can be done very easily : I feel near the start the feeling is a little too uneasy for the grandiose nature of the subsea track. Solution? There are high-pitched "pings" around 0:03, 0:09, 0:15, 0:21. I would suggest adding a second lower note following that ping by a second or two, to resolve it. what do you think?

I think that's what's needed.

[Bollen]

actually even the percussions that start around 0:24, I would ,ake them a little simpler personally for easy-listening game music. Similar rythmic is used in percussions throughout the song it seems to me. Maybe other people can voice their opinion.

Another thing I think that can be done very easily : I feel near the start the feeling is a little too uneasy for the grandiose nature of the subsea track. Solution? There are high-pitched "pings" around 0:03, 0:09, 0:15, 0:21. I would suggest adding a second lower note following that ping by a second or two, to resolve it. what do you think?

It's not easy for me to give a good review when I'm one of the few people reviewing!!
(PS: don't feel that I'm being harsh please!! I just love the part around 1:35)

First of all remember that I don't take any of this criticism personally. For me this is a job and my satisfaction comes from pleasing you, not the other way around.

Second, since this is my job and speciality (people come to me for advice about music or for me to write them the perfect piece of music for their project) I feel obliged to give you some industry advice. I too come from early computer games era. I still vividly remember playing Combat in the the first Atari console (for those of you who are too young: that was rectangles shooting squares at other rectangles, ha!) and later in my pre-teen years I had several Donkey kong and Mario games.
Before I began writing I did masses of research to see what was out there. So far all the examples you have sent me are pretty old and dated. You must understand, that until not that long ago, most music was being written by amateurs or by the same programmers who had a bit of music skills. A lot of the rhythms came from pre-sampled loops with little variation and the harmonies and melodies came from basic diatonic improvisations. I agree this created a "sound" that still "clicks" with those of us who played those games as a child. But looking at the games that have been out for the last decade, music has gone in a very different direction, most of it composed by professional composers. I wish I could find all the links, but suffice to say I looked at the Top ten game tracks (many of them cartoonish) for the past 8 years and found an incredible level of sophistication, thus my interest in this project.

Now, as you've noticed by my reaction to your criticism, I do not want to impose any kind of personal aesthetic to STK. However, I do feel that this oversimplification of the music is perhaps a bad strategy. I sympathize that you want to keep the "old" feel of the music. But if the game (graphics, AI, physics) keeps updating, shouldn't the music do the same?

Concerning the music: I'm not very happy with it precisely because I feel it's "too" simple and it does not represent me, unlike the other tracks submitted so far. Surely you understand that if it's going to have my name on it I want to feel proud about it. So I think I'll try to write something new besides attempting your notes.

Concerning your notes:

-the rhythm is a basic Drum & Bass groove with very little variation. The only bits that change are between 0:49 and 1:13, where it goes to half time. All other variations are just parts of the kit dropping out. So for example the intro is the same groove but without the hi-hat and the snare.

- the "pings" are actually a Sonar (it was very difficult to emulate) like the one that submarines make. A sound I believe very associated to deep waters. If I add a low note to resolve it, it would lose its symbolism and it would become part of the music instead of an emotional association.

- The uneasiness of the intro was done on purpose, but its intention is to create a feeling of mystery and the unknown. After all deep waters can be quite dangerous and uncharted. In fact, I remember when I went to Seaworld in Florida when I was a kid (by the way subsea looks very similar in some parts) and the background music was majestic but also kind of scary. If you just want majestic without any mistery I can just take that bit... In fact, the whole intro seems to be creating such antagonism that it might be best to just delete it all together.

And please remember, all parts can be chopped up, removed, combined, etc. So if there's something you feel should go elsewhere or combined in a certain way just let me know. Or better yet I can always write something new if you give me a detailed description of what it is that you want. It would take a lot less time for you to write this than for me to write something new every time you have a comment.

[Arthur]

Let me say that I like the music a lot, and for me, the only thing I'd "insist" (which I won't, since I'm not in a position to reject or include things in the game) to have changed is the back-and-forth panned instrument (either remove it completely, or at the very least remove the panning effect. It steals too much of the spotlight).

[Bollen]

OK, try this one....

Sorry, no video this time....

[Auria]

Hi Bollen,

I fully understand where you are coming from. Let me try to explain my point a bit more

let me refer to our "professional competition" you can listen to songs from Mario Kart Wii here :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KijwtCrLvGE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq5gusabXTk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9i3tVM0iRg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybhjox7LhmY

Note that the songs do have some musical qualities to them, like changes of key, etc. However I note the presence of clearly spottable melodies; the key does change but not as often as in your work I think (correct me if I'm wrong, your ear is more trained than mine); and the percussions, without being boringly regular, keep using quite easy-listening rythms

So please understand what I meant : I was not so much referring to "old-school" games, I was also referring to what similar professional games are doing right now

Now the part about you being satisfied of your work is a totally different matter. Of course in the end it is up to you to see if you can find satisfaction producing songs for STK. I am not asking for 8-bit songs, don't get me wrong! But I think the genre of STK requires that songs be a little simpler than what you usually would produce (and I would venture that apparently Nintendo agrees with me )


Now regarding the latest version of the track. Hmm well I must say I am surprised, my latest feedback was basically to try easing the intro and the percussion, and that (almost) everything else was great; I was expecting little tweaks in these specific areas, but instead I get a whole new song! I was a little surprised that you would go through so much work when only some parts needed little tweaks (I hope I communicated that clearly)

The new song also has great parts to it. Especially from around 0:46 in my opinion, I especially like that part. Overall it's very good too, again some nitpicking here and there about loudness of instruments vs others that you will likely say would be gone after a mix Now however if you are not yourself satisfied with it yourself well... :/

[0zone0ne]

Sorry if I ramble on a bit

I don't think Mario Kart Wii is a very good example of 'racing game' music at all. Mario Kart 7, the latest game, has much more appropriate music. Personally I think that racing games from the Crash Bandicoot series have much better and more fitting music. This is what I think racing music should sound like, not the music in Mario Kart.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=619gooSQ ... ure=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtBR7E2q ... ure=relmfu <--- favorite
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=271q3DmlVjE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWjT3my9VHY

[Bollen]

Hello Aria! Thank you for your reply. My post was directed at the other participants as well, not just you. As I've often said, my aim here is to please you, the developers, not my ego. On the same token I also want to "contribute" and recycling poorly made music from the past is not my idea of contributing. I want to please all of you with my own voice. I am in fact very happy and proud of the other two tunes you've accepted. Now the hard thing is to get majestic without losing the race feeling....

Concerning the links: what I referred to was the examples you and others have given me before in this thread. Mario Kart Wii is 4 years old and the music is horrific! Mostly the production value, the music itself is actually quite cool at times. I was addressing the industry's best music in my previous post... I like to aim for the stars even if I never make it... Heh, heh, heh! Nevertheless, the music in these links is very complex and the rhythms quite varied so I don't really understand what you are referring to... Sorry! All the pieces I've written for you (excepting intros) has been very rich in recognizable/spottable melodies. In subsea is trickier because you all insisted it had to be more sparse and majestic, hence I can't have swinging melodies like in the other tracks.

Now let me make myself clear. I am not defending what I write, I am just explaining what I've done and why I've done it, in order to facilitate the communication e.g. I say it's a drum & bass groove and you say we don't like drum & bass in STK, I say from 0:00 to 0:30 is the intro and you say OK take the intro out, I was aiming for mysterious and majestic and you say no, no, just majestic, etc.

This has probably been the hardest commission I've ever worked for in my life... Seriously! I suppose it's because I have to listen to so many different opinions, tastes and voices. I usually just have to deal with one person calling the shots, not a whole community....

The reason I gave up on Take 2 was because too many people objected to something and they were all different. Some hated the drums, others the sound effect, others the rhythmic variation; and since I wasn't particularly fond of it I thought something fresh would be easier than to keep patching up a tune that is not cutting it....

And PLEASE, PLEASE don't stop criticizing! I would hope this music makes it in to future releases so the more opinions the better...

So is Subsea Take 3 approved? Should I move on to something else?

[Bollen]

Sorry if I ramble on a bit

I don't think Mario Kart Wii is a very good example of 'racing game' music at all. Mario Kart 7, the latest game, has much more appropriate music. Personally I think that racing games from the Crash Bandicoot series have much better and more fitting music. This is what I think racing music should sound like, not the music in Mario Kart.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=619gooSQ ... ure=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtBR7E2q ... ure=relmfu <--- favorite
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=271q3DmlVjE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWjT3my9VHY

Wow! Nice...! I hadn't heard any of these, I wasn't aware Mario Kart 7 existed. However, if I wrote this you would all say that it's too repetitive...

[0zone0ne]

For some reason, Subsea Take 3 reminds me of Super Mario Galaxy 2. (That is definitely a good thing!)

[Bollen]

Yoo hoo!

[Auria]

Yes take 3 is good and would be accepted

Now I must say I am personally still a little disappointed that you gave up on take 2, it had some awesome material in them (for instance I especially like from 1:35 to 2:00 in take 2). However if you feel more comfortable finishing the mix on take 3 than tweaking take 2 (or even merging them, if that is even possible), then so be it, it is good work too


Regarding our differences in how we view the Mario Kart Wii music... well I guess I may not have enough formal music background to express what I meant with the right vocabulary ^^ sorry about that.

[Arthur]

Yeah, I like take 2 a lot as well, just without the cross-panning on one of the instruments, and it would be perfect. But take 3 is good also, and it is up to you folks to figure out what you will be satisfied with.

[Bollen]

Auria please, you don't need to apologize. I have enjoyed working for you very much!

Concerning track 2, personally I like the panning. It's the first sound I've designed on software and I had dreams about it for days. Is not that I'm holding on to it because it was such an effort for me, but rather because I dreamt of it... And I always trust my dreams... Heh, heh, heh! Not but seriously, it needs to come down considerably and it needs to shut up more often, but the effect is just what I wanted... But it's supposed to be further away, not so in your face. And I wasn't willing to compromise on the drum & bass either. Actually the more I listen to it the more I like it and it's perhaps the reason why I preferred to write something new. So that I can save it for something else.

Now if you're happy with Take 3 I'll put it in the folder.

Speaking of disappointment: I was really hoping you would've taken Take 1. Which I think I will continue to use in personal copy of STK. I just think is the best underwater and I really like the tension it provides during the race. Take 3 is too mellow for a race in my taste.... Majestic and Racing are too opposite.

So, I have nothing on schedule so... Initially you requested a tune for XR591 or the title screen, should I proceed? And if so what would you like me to work on? Title screen or XR591? And please give me as much information as possible of what it is that you want to hear....

[Arthur]

Not but seriously, it needs to come down considerably and it needs to shut up more often, but the effect is just what I wanted... But it's supposed to be further away, not so in your face.

I'd be satisfied with that. I was speaking about how it is now. But it seems like take 3 is the chosen one, so I'm just sayin' for the case of argument.

[Bollen]

Heh, heh, heh! Thank you Arthur I appreciate your enthusiasm. If I ever make a proper version of it I'll mail to you...

[0zone0ne]

I was told by Auria that someone else is already working on XR591.

[Bollen]

Thank OzoneOne, I hope she didn't mean me....(?) In that case I'll work on the title screen. So I'll still need as much information as possible of what it is that you all want to hear. Should it be similar to the current track, should it be "rocky", bouncy, happy, epic...? What's the idea?

[0zone0ne]

All the following is in my opinion:
I think the title screen should more or less describe the entire game in one song. It would probably he happy and bouncy, but maybe have more serious parts to it. For the instruments, it would probably be safe to use ones like in the current title screen music, but maybe you could experiment around with this idea first. Some people may not like this idea, but what about adding some sort of (i don't know the word, is it urban?) elements to the song as well? Things like wind instruments such as saxophones and trumpets and stuff? Something a bit like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd_lZgutnbw
I personally like this idea but maybe some other people won't... You could also try out less of a rocky style and do something like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nZeb3mY ... re=related

[Bollen]

AAAAAAaaaaaaagh ha, ha, ha, ha!!! Mario 7 is great! Love it... How long do you reckon it should be? Same 2mins approx limitation?

[Auria]

Someone on the mailing list said they might want to work on XR591 music. I have no idea if this will go somewhere however, haven't heard back since then (a couple days ago)

I think the main menu screen is one of those biggies that need to be done yeah. Now a word of warning, this song is the one everyone hears when opening the game, so we're going to be quite picky I think staying in the style of the current song title would be good

[Bollen]

How long should it be?

[Auria]

I think quality matters more than length for this one since people rarely stay long in menus. I'd say maybe 1:30. Of course that's approximative and flexible

[Bollen]

OK, will get to work ASAP. On a different subject... Do you want to use subsea Take 1 for anything?