New Music

[Arthur]

No plans as far as I know at least, but if someone made a shorter version it would probably go in pretty quickly.

[Bollen]

I hope you don't... I wish there were more long tracks in STK...

[Arthur]

Well, the problem is not necessarily the length itself, but rather that it's not particularly exciting to drive in some areas. The fact that ground zippers are used to try covering this up signals this. It's like with music: a longer musical piece may be really nice, but if it's basically a three-minute song padded to get five minutes, you will probably find that it doesn't help the song at all. Anyway, this is my personal opinion on the matter, but I know that when the question of including the track in STK came up, the length was considered as one of its weak points.

[Bollen]

Well, this is why I want you guys to push me to do music that can be 3mins long without being boring.... The biggest challenge for me has been finding variation without losing the spirit of the track. See for example 1:06 of my last track, musically it fits but I lost the plot of "under water" theme (as many pointed out)... I think AI improvement is more important than reducing the track's length. Personally I never play short tracks e.g. Math class, Doing dishes, what a mesh... I think the longer the track, the longer the appeal. I would love to see a track in STK that took more than a minute to do a lap and that every turn was different. I'm not a gamer at all, I only started to play it to write music for it, but I find I learn the moves too fast and it stops being a challenge. I drive on automatic pilot after two-three races... Can't say that about the cave! It took me ages to learn it....!

[Barsook]

I agree on what Bollen is saying about the tracks, they should be longer for longer track musics. The shorter ones should be used for the short tracks.

[Arthur]

... I think AI improvement is more important than reducing the track's length. Personally I never play short tracks e.g. Math class, Doing dishes, what a mesh... I think the longer the track, the longer the appeal. I would love to see a track in STK that took more than a minute to do a lap and that every turn was different. I'm not a gamer at all, I only started to play it to write music for it, but I find I learn the moves too fast and it stops being a challenge. I drive on automatic pilot after two-three races... Can't say that about the cave! It took me ages to learn it....!

AI improvements are coming in 0.8.
I usually play shorter tracks, as I find them more challenging (get less time to get a good position, albeit changing amount of laps can change that) and don't tend to have long, boring straights or half a mile of road width. But that's just me.

I agree on what Bollen is saying about the tracks, they should be longer for longer track musics. The shorter ones should be used for the short tracks.

Well that isn't always too easy to achieve. Unless we get custom-tailored music for each track, sometimes we get shorter music for the longer tracks and vice versa. With Bollen around things are certainly looking up though.

[Bollen]

With Bollen around things are certainly looking up though.

Aw.... Sweet! Well you can count on me! I'm just finding it so bloody hard to nail everyone's preferences... I've never had paid commissions that were this hard...

[Auria]

Hi Bollen,

not to put pressure on you but we expect to make the next release in approx. 1-2 months. So I think if the songs that have been "approved" could be mixed by then, so that your songs can benefit us right now instead of waiting for the next release. Thanks!

[Bollen]

Hello Auria, no pressure and you're in luck! I've been up to my eyeballs in work, but now it's all finally finished.... Well, until the next commission, but that might be months (hopefully not). So I'm all yours for a while now. Just to give you an idea, I should be able to provide a demo a day (24hrs is what usually target myself to). So if you need more tunes, at least for some time now, I will produce them fairly quick... Unlike until now. Mixing is not a big deal. I can probably do both in a day, two maximum!

In the meanwhile here's another take on subsea... Not my favourite piece so far, but I think I got a lot closer to what you guys asked for. A cross between "life in the sea" documentary and "race" groove...

And as always, here's the video link: http://youtu.be/J8wqp9OC16Y

[Barsook]

It kind-of sounds like "Major Tom" in a submarine. I don't know if I like that...

[Arthur]

Well I think I like it.

[Bollen]

@Barsook., I'd like to write something that everybody likes so why don't you tell me exactly what it is that you don't like... I don't understand the "Major Tom" analogy... And please try to be as specific as possible e.g. harmonies, rhythm, tempo, melodies and where in the timeline are your objections... Remember that this is a demo and it still needs the whole production thingy i.e. more counter melodies, more grandiose sound, panning effects, etc.

Cheers!

[Auria]

I think it's much closer to what we want, good work

just a few small things I would change. Overall it's quite good so it's only smaller tweaks :
1) the electronic-sounding thing that plays repeatedly (sorry not sure how to say it ^^) should probably be softer in the beginning
2) I would add just a little more touch of easily recognisable melody, probably flute, harp or piano. Maybe something like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-A_E5AUXbmI , probably a little faster - or like the piano melody in the current subsea song. I find the song in some places to be just a little too ambient/background-music. Remember, this is not a movie sound track, the song is allowed to make itself noticed with clear melodies

Anyway I really like your work so I think we're at the tweaking stage now

[Barsook]

@Barsook., I'd like to write something that everybody likes so why don't you tell me exactly what it is that you don't like... I don't understand the "Major Tom" analogy... And please try to be as specific as possible e.g. harmonies, rhythm, tempo, melodies and where in the timeline are your objections... Remember that this is a demo and it still needs the whole production thingy i.e. more counter melodies, more grandiose sound, panning effects, etc.

Cheers!

It's those drums and the beat (tempo) and it is in the whole song if you used it through out it.

[Bollen]

Hello Auria, will do, hopefully by tomorrow. I'd still like to hear from Barsook. As I've said before, don't worry about levels. Everything will be nice and balanced in the production stage. The electronic thing was supposed to do something completely different but didn't render, but I didn't fix it since it's a demo. The piece has melody everywhere so I'm not sure which part are you referring to. Do you mean between 0:00 and 0:35? That's just the intro, to set the mood you know? But I can take it out, as I have in the other pieces.

A small thought about melodies: in general I feel that pieces with just melody tend to get tiresome after a while, specially if we are aiming for people to play the game many times. Personally I have the music off in most games precisely because after you hear them 2-3 times you get sick of them. Whereas more soundscape doesn't have the same effect and you can listen to them many, many times. I'm just thinking that more sparse melodies might be the way to go.... Just a thought.

In the future it would also be nice to have an intro of the music and a separate loop, that way you don't have to listen to the same thing all the time. And also perhaps the music could be affected if you get hit or are rescued... Thoughts for the future.

[Bollen]

Hmmm....! Yes thank you Barsook. I didn't really like the drums either. I will think of something different. The tempo? I think it works, it's fast enough to have a race feel but also allows for the gentle pads on top...

[0zone0ne]

In the future it would also be nice to have an intro of the music and a separate loop...

^

[Barsook]

In the future it would also be nice to have an intro of the music and a separate loop...

^

+1

[Barsook]

Hmmm....! Yes thank you Barsook. I didn't really like the drums either. I will think of something different. The tempo? I think it works, it's fast enough to have a race feel but also allows for the gentle pads on top...

The tempo is fine but when you combine it with the drums is why I don't like it.

[0zone0ne]

A small thought about melodies: in general I feel that pieces with just melody tend to get tiresome after a while, specially if we are aiming for people to play the game many times. Personally I have the music off in most games precisely because after you hear them 2-3 times you get sick of them. Whereas more soundscape doesn't have the same effect and you can listen to them many, many times. I'm just thinking that more sparse melodies might be the way to go.... Just a thought.

I would have to say that I disagree. I think that if a melody is well written enough it can be repeated over and over and it will never get old. Take, for example, the early Mega Man games. Their music was jam packed full of melodies and it never, EVER got old. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFKtYCcMWT4
The same for games like Cave Story (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlmOhXoKmoQ) and Super Meat Boy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eURdUjrhyAs).
I'm an indie game fan :3 (and possibly a nerd).

The problem for me is that I usually have trouble writing melodies...

[Bollen]

OK, here's the re-tweaked version. Different drums and I sorted some of the levels out... I remind you, it's still a demo.

Video link: http://youtu.be/HvLWBGtuGjU

[Bollen]

A small thought about melodies: in general I feel that pieces with just melody tend to get tiresome after a while, specially if we are aiming for people to play the game many times. Personally I have the music off in most games precisely because after you hear them 2-3 times you get sick of them. Whereas more soundscape doesn't have the same effect and you can listen to them many, many times. I'm just thinking that more sparse melodies might be the way to go.... Just a thought.

I would have to say that I disagree. I think that if a melody is well written enough it can be repeated over and over and it will never get old. Take, for example, the early Mega Man games. Their music was jam packed full of melodies and it never, EVER got old. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFKtYCcMWT4
The same for games like Cave Story (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlmOhXoKmoQ) and Super Meat Boy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eURdUjrhyAs).
I'm an indie game fan :3 (and possibly a nerd).

The problem for me is that I usually have trouble writing melodies...

Cave story is quite good and funny! Can't say the same for Mega man.... And of course Super Meat boy is genius! I could write more like that if everyone preferred....

[Auria]

Take 2 is getting quite nice
I must say though that I think this electronic sound that pans from left to right is still to loud especially initially. Also I think the drums are perhaps a little too "elaborate" rythmically for a game music? for instance I think sometimes the percussions hit off-beat (hopefully that's the right word, my music theory background is in french ) the percurssions IMO should be more regular since in a game music we are looking for "easy listening". So perhaps if the rythm used by the percussions was simpler it would actually make the song a better fit for game music (not that I have anything against less regular rythmic patterns! it's just not the right fit for game music I think)

[Bollen]

Hello Auria! I have to disagree, but I think I know what you mean... It's between 0:49 and 1:13? It calls too much attention to itself... If I am correct let me know, it'll take me a minute to re-write something more suitable.

The electronic thing will come down in the mix, don't worry about it...

PS: I would love to hear from Barsook... See if she likes the new drums better...

PPS: Oh and yes, off-beat or upbeat are both correct... How do you say it french?

[Barsook]

(I'm a she and it's cool)

That 49 second or so intro with the drums still annoys me. Is there another type of drums that can achieve the same sound instead of the drums used now? But after those 49 seconds, the main part with the drums doesn't bug me because they are not the main thing like the intro. And I also agree with Auria about her post.