My opinion about SuperTuxKart - explanations

My opinion about SuperTuxKart - explanations

Postby tux » 23 Feb 2017, 17:37

Hi! I would like explain my opinion about SuperTuxKart (viewtopic.php?f=17&t=6730&p=67230&hilit=My+opinion#p67230).

I'm a big fan of STK since 8-9 years. My first version was 0.6.1b. I watched STK development on blog and I was happy when I saw annoucement about new version. But I saw something sad in new versions...

Music: STK music (0.6.2a) was first music which I interested in. I loved listen to this music. But I saw that in new version you replaced old music to another music without user's choice about next music. In my opinion, if you wanted change music, you should keep old music.

Tracks: Some of tracks was amazing in STK 0.6.2. Tux Tollway, the old Shifting Sands, Canyon, Skyline, Around the Lighthouse etc. In current version I don't see this tracks... Of course, these tracks can be downloaded from Addons page but there are NOT in challenges...

Challenges: This is nice that player can choose difficulties of challenge. (Easy, Normal etc.) Story Mode is also nice. But in 0.6.2 challenges had big buttons with description. Player could choose challenge and play without entering Story Mode. In new version player is driving to next challenge.

Hardware requirements: The old version I can play on every computer: weaker and stronger. In new version I can play only on stronger computer with... powerful graphics card! In new version player got A LOT of graphics options! For new players, these options can be difficult. What about very old computers which don't have powerful graphics card?

Game availability: In old versions of Linux player could download SuperTuxKart 0.6.2 and enjoy this version. In new Linux distributions user can't get favorite version of STK (0.5, 0.6.2 etc.) I downloaded SuperTuxKart 0.6.2 from SourceForge but... I can't run because problem with dependiences. I don't know how run my favorite version of STK in Linux Mageia 5.
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Re: My opinion about SuperTuxKart - explanations

Postby deve » 23 Feb 2017, 22:32

Actually you don't need powerful graphics card to play current STK version. You simply don't need to run it at highest settings. From my testing, the OpenGL 3.x shader-based pipeline is actually faster than old irrlicht-based pipeline if you have disabled advanced lighting (graphics level 2). It's fast enough to run it on smartphones with 25-50 fps depending on device and resolution. It's also fast enough to run it with software rendering (!) with something about 25 fps on low resolutions.

And I think that current version without advanced lighting still looks better than STK 0.5 ;)

The problem is only if your device doesn't support OpenGL 3.1...
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Re: My opinion about SuperTuxKart - explanations

Postby QwertyChouskie » 23 Feb 2017, 23:01

Also, the OpenGL 2.1 pipeline had some major bugs fixed in the git version. If for some reason you are stuck on OpenGL 2.1, try the git version. Also, the git version has had some performance improvements for all systems (mainly lower RAM and VRAM usage).
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Re: My opinion about SuperTuxKart - explanations

Postby Auria » 28 Feb 2017, 01:29

Hi,

so a few reponses

Regarding music, honestly this is very subjective and it is impossible to please everyone. We pick the music that we have, and the music that we personally feel is the best. Obviously music tastes vary a lot between individulas so there is no way everyone will like our choices. Since STK is open-source, however, you can easily use other music if you wish by replacing the music files in the datafiles.

As for the old tracks that were removed or upgraded, we understand that some people might like the old tracks, but we do also need to keep improving, we can't ship a game in 2017 with graphicals from several generations ago. Many of the new tracks also serve to smooth out driving by improving physics, etc. Some of the tracks you mention (shifting sands, lighthouse) are actually still in a game, upgraded but nonetheless mostly the same track.

As for hardware requirements, we are aware we could do better and next version should play a bit smoother on some systems, and we will keep on optimising. That being said, STK runs reasonably well on Intel HD 3000 intergrated chips, which is not very recent and very low-end. At the end of the day, getting a modern game to run on a computer that was not meant for gaming is difficult and we will not be able to do miracles, note that most AAA games will not run at all on those computers so STK is already doing a lot more work than most games on backwards compatibility. Maybe you would like to get a 10-year-old-looking game but please understand that most of our players expect a modern-looking game and we just can't deliver that on old low-end hardware that wasn't meant for gaming. People with old computers can still download older version of STK, it is well understood that using an older computer sometimes also means you need to keep using older software

As for dependencies on Linux, you might try building from source. This is not something STK has much control over, this is just the way linux package managers works...
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Re: My opinion about SuperTuxKart - explanations

Postby Wuzzy » 28 Mar 2017, 05:55

I am also sad to see that many of the old classics like Tux Tollway have gone from the main game. I can understand the “legacy” argument, of course, but the old tracks were also iconic and I would greatly appreciate if those tracks would see some remakes. The problem about removing tracks without a proper replacement is that this inevitably lowers the depth of the game. If you remove 1 track out of 20, this is a loss of 5%!
But yeah, at least there's addons.

I think Tux Tollway definitely needs to see a remake, this was one of my favourite tracks and I bet many old-time players will remember this track, too. So if any artist remakes Tux Tollway, this would be awesome.

The Canyon track was also nice and also the star track one, but they are less important to me. I don't care much about the other old tracks.
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Re: My opinion about SuperTuxKart - explanations

Postby brmbrmcar » 28 Mar 2017, 16:52

The game should automatically select an option based on hardware. I think Setting 3 to 2 can increase FPS literally 10x without a GPU, so there could be an intermediate. And that whole "your graphics drivers are not good enough" warning is very scary to most users, and is really meaningless anyway.

Also, my system meets all the recommended requirements, but I still struggle with more than 35 fps on top settings. It is probably mostly drivers but most games work fine (they don't have the OpenGL thing) and they are pretty much the only fully open source Linux drivers for AMD graphics.

This is an open source game, for Linux. This is getting sad.
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Re: My opinion about SuperTuxKart - explanations

Postby Arthur » 28 Mar 2017, 17:19

Just complaining about things does not help anyone. It does not mean other people get more time or inclination to do what you want, possibly even the opposite. Especially when the complaints are based on a lack of understanding.

When it comes to older tracks, they are supposed to be kept alive by those wanting them kept alive, and put in the addons. Sometimes we've done that ourselves and put tracks in addons after being switched out for a new one, but in the case of tracks from years ago, some of them need a little work to be compatible with the current game, something the community could do something about. But I guess it's easier to complain.
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Re: My opinion about SuperTuxKart - explanations

Postby brmbrmcar » 29 Mar 2017, 16:05

Well seeing as every time I try to help with things, you just take the piss and ignore me, I don't see why anyone should bother.
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Re: My opinion about SuperTuxKart - explanations

Postby deve » 29 Mar 2017, 19:18

@brmbrmcar If you will make a pull request that makes our engine 2x faster and that doesn't break anything, I'm 100% sure that everyone will be interested in it. Actually if it will be minor but noticeable speedup or bugfix, I can review it quickly too.
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Re: My opinion about SuperTuxKart - explanations

Postby Arthur » 29 Mar 2017, 19:56

brmbrmcar {l Wrote}:Well seeing as every time I try to help with things, you just take the piss and ignore me, I don't see why anyone should bother.

If you call this and this helping, don't be surprised.
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Re: My opinion about SuperTuxKart - explanations

Postby brmbrmcar » 29 Mar 2017, 21:57

As for #2801, that is what I am on about. I'd like to see how you think that is a reasonable way to deal with the situation. But seeing as every person had the same reaction, I can see it being reproduced.

And yes, I do know ways of speeding up the game (well, making it play much smoother at like 12fps) (but fps itself is hardly boosted).

And for this whole thread, you really need to learn to take some criticism. Not everyone is going to like what you make.
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Re: My opinion about SuperTuxKart - explanations

Postby Arthur » 29 Mar 2017, 23:01

You can't expect us to take responsibility for an unofficial PPA we don't have access to. That was pointed out several times in the ticket but you refuse to listen. Just like we can't take any blame when package maintainers introduce bugs in the game by not packaging it correctly.

As for criticism, we have no problem taking it, but when something gets repeated ad nauseam by the same people there's really only one response: make it so yourself. It's not news that there are numerous things with the game that could be improved, and complaining over and over without actually contributing the work needed just doesn't help anyone. It is annoying for us, and even for you it's a waste of time. Once you've given your opinions in a polite manner you either have to help make improvements happen in a meaningful way, or leave it to those who can for when they have the time and feel like it's something they want to work on. And you also need to accept that some things you think should be done is not the same others think should be done, and complaining about that is not improving anything either.
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Re: My opinion about SuperTuxKart - explanations

Postby samuncle » 29 Mar 2017, 23:11

I like the idea of trying to perform some kind of hardware detection and changing the parameters according to your hardware however you don't realize how complicated coding something like that is:

1) you have thousand of different configurations, drivers and different hardware to take into account. To give you an example I saw a massive improvement on my computer by simply switching the GPU from a PCI slot to a PCI-E slot. SuperTuxKart was the only one affected. Which mean even with the same hardware you can have big differences
2) There is no easy way to know which GPU is there. Sometime the driver just answer something like: INTEL HD GENERIC but gives no information about the model. And even a model can give various different answer depending on the OS and the drivers installed.
3) Which means in order to detect properly we have to parse thousand of different strings and vendors and try to find the most appropriate parameters. It's pretty hard and we aren't working full time on the project.

People forget sometime how hard it can be to create such "simple" option.

If you want to help us, then please submit a patch that can categorize GPU by rendering power and capabilities.
It would help us a lot. I was thinking to only use the VRAM and the number of render core to have some kind of easy to use value to set some preset.
Also recommended hardware isn't for ultra settings. Ultra setting are truly demanding. If you want to achieve a 60 constant FPS no matter want it would be more like a GTX 970 or equivalent ATI

If you have some sort of codding knowledge I'm willing to help you for the detect your hardware and set an option accordingly.
As for #2801

It's unofficial so we can't do much about it. Also it's a feature (updating automatically supertuxkart) not a feature as we explained intended to allow people to have an easy way to build the last version

Not everyone is going to like what you make.

And that's perfectly fine. We never tried to please everyone (it's impossible) and we don't force people to like what we do. You are free to not play the game or to modify it to better suit your needs. That's the power of Open source :).

Also about older tracks being better, I just want to point out that Tux Tollway was highly unoptimized compared to newer tracks. It had literally polygons insides sections you where never able to see, like in a tree trunk.
Newer tracks are more demanding but we don't waste resources like that.

The upcoming version of SuperTuxKart is also improved and we reduced by roughly half the VRAM usage so we are making progress.

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Re: My opinion about SuperTuxKart - explanations

Postby charlie » 30 Mar 2017, 00:40

brmbrmcar {l Wrote}:And for this whole thread, you really need to learn to take some criticism.

Oh my, the projection!!!!

You wouldn't take any answers on that ticket, yet you dare to demand they listen to you? Firstly, you are clueless!!! (No idea what compiling is, no idea what a PPA is or how it all works, no idea that disparate entities don't get to control each other.) Secondly, you are rude. Not a great combination for getting your ideas heard. Thirdly, and finally, you are doing nothing but making noise, and these guys are busy making an actual game.
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Re: My opinion about SuperTuxKart - explanations

Postby brmbrmcar » 30 Mar 2017, 08:30

They didn't give any reasonable answers. They didn't answer any of my further questions and instantly closed it.
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Re: My opinion about SuperTuxKart - explanations

Postby deve » 30 Mar 2017, 08:52

Okay, closing it immediately wasn't diplomatic. Maybe we should just answer "we will do everything that we are able to do to solve the issue", or maybe just not answer anything and close it as invalid after 2 years, when you will forget about it. A lot of projects do something like this. But it's not nice to have 500 invalid bug reports, and it's not nice for you to ignore it in this way either...
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Re: My opinion about SuperTuxKart - explanations

Postby charlie » 30 Mar 2017, 10:11

brmbrmcar {l Wrote}:They didn't give any reasonable answers. They didn't answer any of my further questions and instantly closed it.

They told you about 5 times in the ticket that the problem was with the PPA and not with STK!!! You said they were wrong (when you are clearly wrong) instead of asking for clarification on the things you don't know!!!

deve {l Wrote}:Okay, closing it immediately wasn't diplomatic.

Closing it was the correct thing to do; why do the developers need to be diplomatic over black and white issues?
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Re: My opinion about SuperTuxKart - explanations

Postby Arthur » 30 Mar 2017, 14:14

brmbrmcar {l Wrote}:They didn't give any reasonable answers. They didn't answer any of my further questions and instantly closed it.

Why should we bother answering you when you refuse to believe us? As said, you're just wasting everyone's time, including your own. If we are not trustworthy there's literally no use in asking, unless you enjoy "being lied to".
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Re: My opinion about SuperTuxKart - explanations

Postby brmbrmcar » 30 Mar 2017, 17:09

I said "You can't just dismiss this issue to do with the ppa." OK, maybe I didn't read the first response thoroughly enough, but you could have at least responded. And I still don't see any reason to instantly close bug reports, when you yourself admitted that it was just what you thought.

And that other issue - calm down. It was merely a suggestion.
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Re: My opinion about SuperTuxKart - explanations

Postby brmbrmcar » 30 Mar 2017, 17:10

charlie {l Wrote}:instead of asking for clarification on the things you don't know!!!

I did and was ignored.
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Re: My opinion about SuperTuxKart - explanations

Postby onpon4 » 30 Mar 2017, 20:30

I said "You can't just dismiss this issue to do with the ppa."

I don't even know for sure what you mean by this. I can't tell if you are trying to claim that the fact that it's someone else's PPA is an invented excuse, or whether you think that it's the job of the STK project to handle issues with someone else's PPA. It's a malformed sentence. I assume you meant the latter, but why are you standing by such sloppy and unclear wording?

I'm a neutral party here; I am not involved in the STK development and have no particular opinion of you. But you are clearly in the wrong. STK is not responsible for someone else's script. It cannot be, not without attaching an unethical proprietary license to STK. This was explained to you multiple times, and once even by the author of the script.

If you are dissatisfied with the direction STK is going in, fork it. No one is stopping you. If you aren't up to the task, then you'll just have to live with it.
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Re: My opinion about SuperTuxKart - explanations

Postby brmbrmcar » 30 Mar 2017, 20:31

I meant that the ppa may not have been to blame whatsoever. That seemed obvious to me.
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Re: My opinion about SuperTuxKart - explanations

Postby onpon4 » 30 Mar 2017, 21:18

No, that's not possible. As was explained in that issue, that PPA includes a script that automatically downloads and compiles the latest STK periodically. So the behavior you were complaining about had nothing to do with STK and was completely normal.

If you think this is incorrect, the correct response is to get STK from an official source (e.g. compile the source code yourself) and test that. It is not to assert that what you have been told "may" be wrong (especially not using such unclear wording which, if I may point out, everyone misunderstood).
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Re: My opinion about SuperTuxKart - explanations

Postby Arthur » 30 Mar 2017, 21:58

brmbrmcar {l Wrote}:I meant that the ppa may not have been to blame whatsoever. That seemed obvious to me.

And for everyone knowing what cc1plus is, which you could have known too if you searched the Internet (and I did provide a link which did so), it was obvious STK was not at fault and you simply brushing off our explanations even after multiple people had their say made it clear you are only wasting our time. So actually your "contribution" efforts are in the negative.
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Re: My opinion about SuperTuxKart - explanations

Postby brmbrmcar » 30 Mar 2017, 22:43

I know what cc1plus is. But you WERE REALLY TAKING THE PISS. I'm not discussing this anymore. Bye bye.
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