Achievements system

Achievements system

Postby Wuzzy » 26 Apr 2015, 06:04

I think the achievements in 0.9 are pretty lame, because most of them are trivial to get.

  • Cristoffel Columbus: Where's the challenge? It's only a matter of time until you get this.
  • Strike!: Since the strikes are counted in the whole game, it's only a matter of time until you get it, so zero skill involved
  • Marathon Driver: Again, where's the challenge? Not even victory is required.

I suggest to remove these 3 achievements because they are trivial and absolutely 0 skill is required to get them.
IMO good achievements should require at least minimal skill, otherwise they are pointless and boring.

One of the achievements even seems to be broken:
The achievement “arch enemy” (or however it is called) seems to be impossible to get: I have bombed a kart way more than 5 times in a race and still did not get it.


I also suggest a new set of achievements where you actually have to achieve something (all are singleplayer-only):

Game progress achievements:
  • King of Karts: Defeat Nolok in Story Mode
  • Trophy Collector: Win gold in every challenge of Story Mode.
  • Egg Hunter: Win every official Egg Hunt at least once.

Special victory achievements:
  • Grand Prix Star: Finish 1st in all races (normal or time-trial mode) of any of the official grand prix on Expert difficulty.
  • Grand Prix Superstar: Finish 1st in all races (normal or time-trial mode) of any of the official grand prix on SuperTux difficulty.
  • Grand Prix Master: Win the “All Tracks” grand prix (normal or time-trial mode) on SuperTux difficulty (btw, does this grand prix still exist?)
  • Full House: Win a normal or time-trial race against 18 or more AI opponents and only 1 lap on Intermediate or higher difficulty.
  • Driver: Win a normal race against 4 or more AI opponents on Intermediate difficulty.
  • Racer: Win a normal race against 6 or more AI opponents on Expert difficulty.
  • SuperTux: Win a normal race with 3 or more laps and against 10 or more AI opponents on SuperTux difficulty.
  • Endurance Racer: Win a normal or time-trial race with 12 or more laps against 4 or more AI opponents on Expert or SuperTux difficulty on any of the official tracks except Oliver's Math Class.
  • 88 Miles Per Hour: Win a time-trial race against 4 or more AI opponents on Intermediate difficulty.
  • No Time To Explain: Win a time-trial race against 6 or more AI opponents on Expert difficulty.
  • Time Lord: Win a time-trial race against 10 or more AI opponents on SuperTux difficulty.
  • Bumper Kisser: Win a “Follow the Leader” race on Intermediate difficulty against at least 6 AI karts.
  • Loyal Follower: Win a “Follow the Leader” race on Expert difficulty against at least 12 AI karts.
  • Princess' Life Guard: Win a Follow the Leader race on SuperTux difficulty against at least 18 AI karts.
  • Fun on Penguin Playground: Win the “Penguin Playground” grand prix in the “Follow the Leader” mode on Intermediate or higher difficulty.
  • Scrooge McTux: Win a normal race without using any power-ups or nitro-boosts on Intermediate or higher difficulty.
  • Paranoid Pidgin: Win a time-trial race without using any power-ups or nitro-boosts on Intermediate or higher difficulty.
  • Show Those Newbies Who's Boss!: Win a normal or time-trial race with at least 60 seconds in the lead on Novice difficulty.
  • Domination: Win a normal or time-trial race with at least 30 seconds in the lead on Intermediate difficulty.
  • Kommand and Konqi: Win a normal or time-trial race with at least 25 seconds in the lead on Expert or higher difficulty.
  • Supreme Leader: Win a normal or time-trial race with at least 20 seconds in the lead on SuperTux difficulty.

Racing maneuvers:
  • Sara Schumacher: Outstrip* a kart on any of the official tracks except Oliver's Math Class.
  • Basketball Killer: Destroy a basket ball with a plunger 2 times in a race.
  • Bull's Eye: Fire at least 5 bowling balls in a race and always hit a kart. **
  • Splash Damage: Hit 3 or more karts at once with a cake.

* =could be determined at each new lap you start, if you enter lap X while the last kart is still in lap X-2 or even lower, you have outstripped a kart and thus earned an achievement
** = The achievement is only awarded at the end of the race when the bowling ball accuracy was 100%.

Not really meant serious/just for fun (feel free to ignore):
  • Chaos Theory: Win a Follow the Leader race against 18 or more AI opponents on Novice difficulty.
  • Plumber: Win a normal race with exactly 5 laps and exactly against 7 AI opponents on Intermediate or higher difficulty.
  • Delivering Packets Since 1978: Drive a normal race on Gran Paradiso Island against 3 or more opponents and collect at least 6 gift boxes per lap and don't finish last.
  • Down with the Leader!: Attack and hit the leader in a Follow the Leader race and cause one of your opponents to be knocked-out for being in front of the leader.


What do you think of the achievement system?
Also feel free to suggest your own achievement ideas! ;)
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Re: Achievements system

Postby charlie » 26 Apr 2015, 11:36

Wuzzy {l Wrote}:
  • Cristoffel Columbus: Where's the challenge? It's only a matter of time until you get this.
  • Strike!: Since the strikes are counted in the whole game, it's only a matter of time until you get it, so zero skill involved
  • Marathon Driver: Again, where's the challenge? Not even victory is required.

I suggest to remove these 3 achievements because they are trivial and absolutely 0 skill is required to get them.
IMO good achievements should require at least minimal skill, otherwise they are pointless and boring.

I disagree. Achievements are various requirements; one is just play time. It is "rewarding" the player for playing. Not everybody is as immensely skillful as you may be, some achievements are rewarding perseverance.

The demographic for the game extends beyond ages and abilities. Don't just assess everybody in your own image.
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Re: Achievements system

Postby Wuzzy » 26 Apr 2015, 14:16

Don't forget what I've said:
Also feel free to suggest your own achievement ideas! ;)

I admit, I have set the bar for most suggested achievements a bit high. Maybe this can be out-done by adding more easy ones.

Anyways, I am just saying.

Maybe it makes more sense to add at least a minimum requirement to those achievements. For example, instead of just driving all 20 tracks, also require to win at least once on them. Should totally be doable even for newbies when playing on Novice difficulty and the achievement is not trivial anymore.

Easy achievements are okay, but not trivial ones IMO. The “no skill” achievements are more like a very primitive stats system (you have driven 15/20 tracks, you have hit 5 karts with a bowling ball, etc.). If this is what you are wanting, maybe it makes more sense to implement a stats screen which simply shows the raw numbers? (Not that I would care very much about such a system, lol, I am only mentioning this as a compromise solution).

If an achievement can be get for trivial tasks, there is nothing you actually “achieve”. There is nothing rewarding about it and it becomes meaningless. I had seen worse, I had games where the requirement for an achievement was something like “Do boring and trivial task 1000000 times.”.

That having said, I suggest more achievements (again, all are singleplayer-only. Also, all “races” imply there is at least 1 AI opponent if not stated otherwise):

Milestones:
  • Baby Racer: Win your first normal race.
  • Baby Time-Trial Racer: Win your first time-trial race.
  • Baby Follower: Win your first Follow the Leader race.
  • First Big Victory: Win your first official grand prix.
  • Becoming an Expert: Win your first normal or time-trial race on Expert difficulty.
  • The Amazing SuperTux: Win your first normal or time-trial race on SuperTux difficulty.
  • Onto the Winner's Podium: Finish 1st, 2nd or 3rd in a grand prix with at least 5 opponents
  • Major League: Win all official Grand Prix against 5 or more AI opponents.
  • Young Fox: Win your first Egg Hunt.
  • Quick! Follow the red kart!: Win a Follow The Leader race on different 10 official tracks at least once.
  • Time Terror: Win a time-trial race on 10 different official tracks at least once.
  • Silver Collector: Win silver or better in all Story Mode challenges***

More Egg Hunt stuff:
  • Greedy Fox: Win any of the official Egg Hunts except in Oliver's Math Class in under 120 seconds.
  • Chicken School: Win Egg Hunt in Oliver's Math Class in under 50 seconds.

Skill-based stuff (sorry, I can't resist :D):
  • Need For Nitro: Win a normal, time-trial or follow the leader race with a full nitro bar.
  • Love For Grand Prix: Win a grand prix with at least 10 tracks and 3 opponents.
  • Grand Grand Prix Win any of the official grand prix with with at least 10 opponents.
  • Miles Ahead: Win a grand prix with at least the 1st place's worth amount of points in the lead*
  • Flat as a Pancake: Hit the same kart with the swatter 2 times in a row**
  • Rebel Racer: Win a time-trial race in which you got a time penalty for starting too early
  • Seize the Crown: Win a normal or time-trial race on all official tracks on Intermediate or higher difficulty at least once.
  • World Domination: Win a normal or time-trial race on all official tracks on Expert or higher difficulty at least once.
  • Master of the Universe: Win a normal or time-trial race on all official tracks on SuperTux difficulty at least once.

* = For example: If 1st place awards 10 points, you have to win the grand prix and your final score must be at least 10 points higher than the 2nd.
** = the two hits must lay not further away than 10 seconds
*** = There is no “Bronze Collector” because this is technically equivalent to “King of Karts”.

Besides: Is there any achievement I have posted which you probably could never get? (Tip: In most cases, you can easily test this for yourselves by just playing with the correct settings). Especially: Does anyone have serious problems in winning gold for all challenges in story mode? (Even if so: I still think getting gold for all challenges is totally achievement-worthy).
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Re: Achievements system

Postby Arthur » 26 Apr 2015, 18:22

One of the current issues with achievements is that while they are relatively easy to implement in code, they are still hardcoded. Once we have scripting support for tracks, extending that to cover achievements would probably be a good idea.
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Re: Achievements system

Postby samuncle » 26 Apr 2015, 22:40

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Don't take it bad ;).

Sure wuzzy your ideas are greats and we have ideas too :P. We are almost 100% busy with scripting/networking/etc.

Yes some achievement are "easy" (btw in commercial games it's often the case too. Like -=ACHIEVEMENT: elite captain (you finished the tutorial)=-.
They are there as candy more than real big challenge. Some are silly some are obvious other require a lot of time to have them. For Christopher Columbus someone who doesn't finish the game will never obtain. So it requires some challenge.

The demographic for the game extends beyond ages and abilities. Don't just assess everybody in your own image.

+10000

In a nutshell if you want to include more achievement sure you are WELCOME :) and we will gladly accept. Otherwise we are busy with our own work :(.
Sorry if I'm a bit harsh but when I joined the project in 2010 the team said the same thing. If you want better track just do them, that's what I did.

Don't give up, implement your achievement and we will be glad, win/win

Also your achievement can live peacefully with those already existing. For instance with Christopher Columbus, we can have another one called An epic adventure which mean win a race in all track at least once.

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Re: Achievements system

Postby ArDanWol » 26 Apr 2015, 23:28

I like the idea of adding more achievements (and maybe even adding some rewards for completing them in the future) but I think we should keep all the ones we have already. It helps keep it fun for people who aren't very good players (like my younger siblings). ;)
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Re: Achievements system

Postby Wuzzy » 27 Apr 2015, 00:23

Oh no, not this sign again! I hate it when you post it.
Can we just discuss the ideas as such first? Also I would like to hear achievement ideas from others as well. AKA Brainstorming. ;)
I actually also want to hear what other people have to say about the proposed achievements?

Are they good? Stupid? Too easy or too hard? Unrealistic? Etc.

One of the current issues with achievements is that while they are relatively easy to implement in code, they are still hardcoded. Once we have scripting support for tracks, extending that to cover achievements would probably be a good idea.

I don't really understand what's so bad about hardcoding the achievements but whatever. I am not really part of the project … :/
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Re: Achievements system

Postby Arthur » 27 Apr 2015, 01:35

Wuzzy {l Wrote}:I don't really understand what's so bad about hardcoding the achievements but whatever. I am not really part of the project … :/

To change them means recompiling the game, and in general some C++ knowledge. Having them in scripts would mean adding more or at least changing them would be more accessible.

I am happy for the list in any case, because we often recommend programmers new to the project to implement an achievement to get familiar with the coding style and how we use Github and so on, and having some ideas ready doesn't hurt. :)
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Re: Achievements system

Postby hiker » 27 Apr 2015, 05:56

Hi,

thanks a lot for the list of achievements. While I admit I didn't study them all in details (as in - how hard would they be to achieve, and how hard to implement), having this kind of list is really useful for us.

Wuzzy {l Wrote}:Oh no, not this sign again! I hate it when you post it.

I actually would have to agree - your list is quite useful.

Can we just discuss the ideas as such first? Also I would like to hear achievement ideas from others as well. AKA Brainstorming. ;)
I actually also want to hear what other people have to say about the proposed achievements?

I would love to add more achievements, and especially harder to get ones. As background, the achievements so far were nearly all implemented from students applying for GSoC (i.e. quite often not really experienced STK players), since they are an easy and gentle introduction to STK's source code. So ideal tasks for beginners. And as others have pointed out: with scripting it _might_ be possible to move achievement definitions to scripts, which would be much easier to add.

Main issue is that us main developers won't really have time to implement them, since we are working on e.g. scripting, other GSoC projects to be integrated, networking (soon I hope) - so, consider this a call to all programmers: please contribute, we would love more achievements. With a bit of luck it might not even need C++ skills - depending on how scripting development works out.

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Re: Achievements system

Postby Wuzzy » 28 Nov 2017, 22:12

Since nobody stepped up so far, I suggest to remove the achievements or at least hide them from the player's view (i.e. hide the button in main menu and remove the pop ups) until there has been some real improvement. Achievements haven't been touched for a couple of releases now, I doubt this is going to change anytime soon.

Keeping achievements which you just randomly get by playing the game is stupid.

Current achievements are too lame. Most of them aren't worth keeping, I wouldn't miss them.
These are especially NOT 1.0.0-worthy.
You said that this feature was mostly a GSoC thing. Well, keeping a halfplemented feature from people who didn't even play STK much themseleves is not a good idea anyway.
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Re: Achievements system

Postby Arthur » 28 Nov 2017, 22:47

We have lots of less than ideal features, it's weird to just single out achievements. Also when it's easy to get and a bit in your face it may prompt some programmer to look into how to add more, and thus start contributing to the project. Not too likely obviously since it hasn't happened yet, but they don't hurt to keep. Except for you it seems.
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Re: Achievements system

Postby Wuzzy » 29 Nov 2017, 09:58

I'm arguing from a quality control perspective. You are aggressively deleting tracks which aren't of absolute perfect quality, but on the other hand you have absolutely no problem in keeping a such halfplemented feature that no developer cares to complete. You are obviously not using the “it doesn't hurt” argument for tracks.
This line of thinking simply doesn't make any sense. It's inconsistent. All I did was to simply apply your track quality logic to features. Achievements are noteworthy here because nobody has touched them for a very long time. Other less-then-ideal features are at least cared about. That's the difference.

Whatever. Since STK is still in beta, it's really not important. I agree there are much more important things. Do you at least agree that current achievements are not 1.0.0-worthy?
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Re: Achievements system

Postby Arthur » 29 Nov 2017, 10:23

The big difference is that the amount of tracks can't just grow and grow, since it's a maintenance burden to keep challenges/overworld up to date and also maintain the tracks themselves. Especially the overworld would need quite a bit of work every time an extra track were added.

In contrast, the achievements just sit there and if they stop working and nobody cares to fix them they will get removed as well. And yeah they're not of the highest quality but compared to tracks I don't think people care a whole lot that some are a bit underwhelming. For an 1.0 release I would imagine that the whole game would be reevaluated, but currently just keeping the achievements around is less work than removing them.
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