Some thoughts on 0.8

[Alayan]

I wanted to make this topic a long long time ago, but unfortunately I didn't.
I hope the feedback I'll give here may help, even if it is little in regard of a code help.

About the bugs :
The subject of the time trial give a lot of track where you can abuse of something unplanned. Outside of that, I don't remember everything, I most notably noted that you can skid while jumping. And turn maybe also. Which is somehow problematic.
On the overworld, some minor bug : you can see the other side of the great wall by being very close, and I remember some problems in the lava area but not which, in relation with what you can see.
EDIT : When you fall in water of the old mine, you will fall during 30-40 secondes into black before being rescued.

About everything else :
-I have that feeling that easy challenge give too much point (8 in comparison to 9 in normal and 10 in expert). I know why it was done, to allow someone to end the history mode only by playing easy mode. I know I may be biased but by setting it to say 7 it could be better. The player would have to complete half of the challenge in normal mode. Normal mode is still easy (after it is a matter of which challenge), and after training in easy mode, having to surpass yourself (for someone used to play easy/discovering such game) a little bit would make it more rewarding IMO.
-Why not disallow item boxes on challenges with no AI Kart ?
-Re-testing a little to do this post, I noticed that there is no music when you win a challenge and unlock what was in the chest. A good "victory" music could make it a lot more enjoyable.
-STK offers an interesting features with the possibility to drive track revert, but why not make it an unlockable feature and use it in the challenges ? Actually, it is even possible to not notice its existence, which is sad.
-There is no true max speed, just a max bonus you can get from skidding/nitro/zipper. Also, the speed indicator doesn't indicate true speed over his limit. So maybe could it be interesting to limit cumulating and/or rework somehow the speed indicator ?
-The item parachute need IMO some reworking in his effect. Why ? If the concept is good, it has the problem of being actually more annoying when you are slow than fast.
-The %age of the different item, depending on your position, need also reworking IMO. I setted personnalized settings a few months ago and felt it helped. What is the problem ? When you are in the last positions, there are a lot of object which allow you to slow your opponents, mostly the nearest, and few which allow you to go faster. It ends in the last kart being slower with objects than without and the first karts escaping, which is the opposite of the items goal. (Also, multiple cake is really too powerful)(And also, maybe having different settings for race with say 13+ opponents where something like parachute become really powerful)
-A new item allowing to be faster/immune to other attacks during a few time could also be interesting in this regard
-An unlockable 4th level of difficulty over expert (which may be renamed ?), as it was proposed a few months ago by someone. It would make racing in expert more rewarding and add some challenge for these who want.
-The "all track" grand prix was definitely cool !
-A feature storing your highscores in grand prix ? (Time & Points)
-EDIT : Also, when selecting a track to run in solo, having a back bouton in addition of the possibility to use keyboard for that.

Thank you for reading, I hope it will help, and thank you for all the work to provide us a great game.

[samuncle]

Hello

Thanks for the review

On the overworld, some minor bug : you can see the other side of the great wall by being very close, and I remember some problems in the lava area but not which, in relation with what you can see.

It's a problem with the camera and every walls in the game. It's very difficult to correct its .

-Why not disallow item boxes on challenges with no AI Kart ?

That's an option, the other option is to have specific items for challenge like that (A giant magnet that attract nitro bottles ?). But we don't have time to do that.

-Re-testing a little to do this post, I noticed that there is no music when you win a challenge and unlock what was in the chest. A good "victory" music could make it a lot more enjoyable.

Sure if you have a cool music that we can include in the game (with a compatible license).

-STK offers an interesting features with the possibility to drive track revert, but why not make it an unlockable feature and use it in the challenges ? Actually, it is even possible to not notice its existence, which is sad.

That's very interesting. I like the idea  :)

-The %age of the different item, depending on your position, need also reworking IMO. I setted personnalized settings a few months ago and felt it helped. What is the problem ? When you are in the last positions, there are a lot of object which allow you to slow your opponents, mostly the nearest, and few which allow you to go faster. It ends in the last kart being slower with objects than without and the first karts escaping, which is the opposite of the items goal. (Also, multiple cake is really too powerful)(And also, maybe having different settings for race with say 13+ opponents where something like parachute become really powerful)

It's very, very, very difficult to find the right combination. You can try and if you find something better we will change

-A new item allowing to be faster/immune to other attacks during a few time could also be interesting in this regard

That's done . In the upcoming version (0.8.1) we will have a bubble gum shield

-An unlockable 4th level of difficulty over expert (which may be renamed ?), as it was proposed a few months ago by someone. It would make racing in expert more rewarding and add some challenge for these who want.

That's done , like the bubble gum shield

-The "all track" grand prix was definitely cool !

We have planned to add a "random" grand prix that mix tracks available

-A feature storing your highscores in grand prix ? (Time & Points)

Why not if you want to code it.

-EDIT : Also, when selecting a track to run in solo, having a back bouton in addition of the possibility to use keyboard for that.

That isn't already the case ?

Thank you for reading

Thanks for your review . If you want to give your opinion about our new style (for the 0.9 version) viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4774

[Alayan]

Hello samuncle, thanks for your answer.

So about the music sadly it's not me which will be able to do it.
But it may be noted in the TODO so someone who can will do it.

For the 4th lvl of difficulty, excellent ! For the double use of the bubble gum, and the shield ability, it is good but maybe also something like that could be good. [EDIT : To make it clear, an item to accelerate without destroying other, somehow better than a zipper and even near of 3 zipper [taking account a side effect like some protection or I don't know which particularity]

EDIT : Also, when selecting a track to run in solo, having a back bouton in addition of the possibility to use keyboard for that.

That isn't already the case ?

Not in 0.8, maybe it has been added since.

We have planned to add a "random" grand prix that mix tracks available

This is cool, but the challenge of 20 race in a row had a unique taste.

-A feature storing your highscores in grand prix ? (Time & Points)

Why not if you want to code it.

Ha ha, I may could do it but installing all the coding environment would be a mess, and I'm not used to STK code. x)

It's very, very, very difficult to find the right combination. You can try and if you find something better we will change

I looked on the SVN to have the official settings, and compare to what I already did.
Here is my own combination, with the actual objects, I made tests way back in february and also some here. It may need to be a little adapted to the new bubble and to another object if you introduce it, but it's minor.

{l Code}: {l Select All Code}

  <!--      bubble  cake  bowl  zipper  plunger  switch swattr rubber para  anvil -->
  <first  w="30       5    20     0      15       10      10     0     0     0"
    w-multi=" 0       0     0     0       0        0       0     0     0     0"    />
  <top33  w="20      10    15    16      14        5       5    10     5     0"
    w-multi=" 0      0     10     0      10        0       0     0     0     0"    />
  <mid33  w="15      12    15    20      11        3       8     8     8     0"
    w-multi="20       0    20    25      20        0       0     0     0     0"    />
  <end33  w=" 5      15    12    30       8        2       8     8    12     0"
    w-multi="40       0    30    45      30        0       0     0     0     0"    />
  <last   w=" 0      15     5    50       5        0       0     5    20     0"
    w-multi=" 0      0     40    70      60        0       0     0     0     0"    />

Main changes : -all weights setted on a 100 scale (aka, total weights of objects for a category is 100), so it is far easier to understand to anyone who look on it
-not anymore multiple cake : overpowered. Even multiple bowling ball is really powerful
-less plunger for the last positions : it is a fun item, but not a very useful one
-more zipper from mid33 to last, especially for end33 and last
-cake rarer than bowling ball for top 33 and even mid33
-not anymore zipper or multiple bowling balls for the first
-numerous other little changes, but it is hard to compare seeing that the official is not on a 100 scale
-less rubber balls. With old settings, someone in mid33 had a little more than 10% of having it and someone in end33 roughly 15%, not to speak about the last. When you see 1 or 2 rubber balls per turn and you are first, you become crazy. [New record : 5 in 20 seconds !][Also, is it normal seeing that much rubber ball in comparison to parachute while on the xml it should be similar ? It seems strange]

To illustrate the effect, on a 4 turn race on Hacienda with 11 AI on expert, the average time (mesured on 10 races) between 2 AI is of 2,52s with my settings instead of 3,16s with old ones. There is maybe not more challenge for the human player, but not less while having less rubber balls...
My settings are adapted to race with 8 to 12 players (with which I tested), it should be also correct for race with 4 or 5 players.
For 20 players races, there will be probably too much rubber ball. (Parachute will also be seen more often but are a more "fair" item)

Also, maybe having quarters (top25, mid1-25, etc) would help to make it more progressive than actually ? Mainly for the races with an important number of car.


To conclude this message, two other thoughs.
The first is about the first player and the shield bubble gum : bubble gum was designed as a not very effective item, and the first have an important quantity of it, is there not a risk it would be too good ? I think especially about the human player that would wait a rubber ball and avoid it with the shield.
The second is about the use of the nitro by the AI. AI use it like a begginer, using it continuously during say 0,5/1 second. Or it is just a way to waste nitro : the good way is to use it with very small inputs 1-2 times per second (with the code you can check which frequency in reality), so you're at the same speed than with continuous input, but your nitro bottle duration is enormously increased. So the improvement to realize : set a small minimum of nitro use for an input (actually, I find a nitro bottle can help too much), make 3rd level AI using nitro with inputs "in middle" between the continuous input and the smallest possible, and the 4th level IA with inputs just a little over the smallest (to give still a tiny advantage to human which would use it perfectly).

[bonifarz]

Hi Alayan, fellow trial racer.
I agree with most of your points, and some of these have indeed been addressed earlier. If you search my topics (a link in my signature lists all of them), you will also find some older settings for the hard AI, a grandprix file with all tracks and config snippet with my personal item weights. Considering the use of nitro: I think there were plans that the way the AI handles nitro will be the only valid one, i.e. very short boosts will probably not be possible in the next release.
Off topic: I will update your times later Recently my trial habits where more about running on walls

[Alayan]

Hi bonifarz, glad to read you,
I had already seen your subject about IA and applied your changes to my 0.8. It was better but no real gap with expert. Still, I use it now for racing. What I would like to have is your double speed mode, but I didn't seen where there is something to change to have it. (Your .xml causes error at start if I remplace directly, I dunno why)
About your powerup distribution, there are things similar to mine, but I was more extreme (no 25% limit, less rubber and moooooore zipper, also not only multiples of 5%). ^.^

For the nitro change, I've seen a little about it.
Especially this from Auria on a ticket about current SVN :

You say :

When I take a small bottle of nitro, I can use it by only one click. It doesn't matter how short.

Well, this is not a bug, it is intended. When you collect a cake, you use it in one time; when you collect a nitro bottle, the idea is that it's the same, a nitro bottle is used at once as one bonus. Before it was too easy to use nitro more than intended. I know many people have gotten used to very short nitro bursts, but that was never intended and only accidental. We might tweak it a little more but the very short bursts will not come back

I hope that according to the last sentence little inputs may come back even if not as short than before (it was too short, for sure).
I made a little test, in 0.8 (so before the change), I achieved to take 19 very little burst to consume a little bottle. While skidding, you won't be so precise and will probably do something like 12, but it was too much.
Still, I hope than the if the tweaking will be done, it won't be a 2 or 3 input to consume the bottle, but more something like say 6 which seems a good compromise, maybe 8. (With harder AI able to use it correctly)
Use little input needs some training, and couple it with good trajectory and skidding is far from easy and give some challenge, while you don't HAVE to use it to enjoy the game and beat AI.
Finally, while talking about nitro, if someone want to give an interest to continous inputs, I have an idea : often, when you get it by a bowling ball/cake/rubber ball or you simply went off the road and lost your speed, you would like to accelerate faster. But pressing nitro to give you a good acceleration is actually not effective, so why not make that continous input make you accelerate faster ? It would mainly help players who would have some difficulties to win/reduce the frustration of taking this cake in your face.