Race UI

[grego1422]

Hello everybody, I want to know if is there an .xml I can modify to have speedometer, rank and action messages back.

By the way, if my opinion matters, I don't like what you did to the race-in UI. Ranking is an essential informative tool, and I used to look at it all the time, specially when I was playing tournaments or against my friends. Speedometer is not that important, but it becomes important when you get stuck or when you are using nitro to know how to spend it and keeping the speed constant. I dont understand why you did remove them, they made the game look really complete and I'm really dissapointed at how it looks now.

On the other hand I want to thank you, because City and Fort Magma look great, and because all the little improvements make the game feel better.

[Crendgrim]

grego:
Which version and OS are you using?
With latest SVN there are all the UI features shown (with the official releases, too).


Crend

[Auria]

Hi,

at this time nothing is definitely removed, there is a just a separate testing mode. So nothing is definitive at this point, and the feedback will definitely be considered.

At this time there is no need for a XML switch because the old race GUI is still the default

[KroArtem]

Though, if you have a minimal gui right now and want to switch to the old one, search for config.xml (in linux it is in /home/%yourname%/.config/supertuxkart/config.xml) and change the value <minimal-race-gui value="true" /> from 'true' to 'false'.
Btw, I think Joerg just started implementing new minimal gui and it is not completed yet, so don't blame Joerg or Auria However I agree with you, minimal gui still needs some love.

[grego1422]

My question was just because of what I saw on the STK blog. I though that if that GUI will be implemented then I would not want to use it and would like to have the old one ASAP. Thanks for your answers.

[hiker]

Hello everybody, I want to know if is there an .xml I can modify to have speedometer, rank and action messages back.

I assume you are talking of the blog post? Since the default is still the normal race gui. And the rank information is still there - though (since it is work in progress) not as big/obvious as it will be.

By the way, if my opinion matters, I don't like what you did to the race-in UI. Ranking is an essential informative tool, and I used to look at it all the time, specially when I was playing tournaments or against my friends.

I agree, that's why the final (minimal) race gui will include a bigger and more obvious ranking indicator. And player karts will be more obviously marked in the mini map as well.

Speedometer is not that important, but it becomes important when you get stuck or when you are using nitro to know how to spend it and keeping the speed constant. I dont understand why you did remove them, they made the game look really complete and I'm really dissapointed at how it looks now.

YMMV of course, but the fact that you have time to look and optimise your nitro imho indicates a different problem: STK is just too boring. And that's (what I think) is similar with many of the features of the current race gui: e.g. if you have time to read the item messages, the game is just too slow, you are not challenged enough Admittedly I might have first made the game more challenging before adjusting the race gui, but I was just curious

For now the minimal race gui is at this stage just experimental (you have to modify a config file to even get it), so I am not even sure if it will become the default.

Thanks for your feedback!
Joerg

[Arthur]

Just posted my opinion on why I think minimal race UI is better in the comments on the blog. At least I think people shouldn't dismiss it before trying - give it a fair chance, and you might find that it's not that bad.

[Kinsu]

Arthur, I wouldlike to react about your blog comment (sorry about the length of the message):

IMO, the current GUI is distracting. Constant funny messages that you probably won't have time to read, "woobly" rank display on the left (which really doesn't work too well - it doesn't focus on you, and if you fall below say 8th or 9th place you won't even see yourself there - especially bad in multiplayer), and a speedometer that's of no real use are for me the definition of bloat. Top that with a map that's too small to be of any good use, and you get the current race GUI.

Messages
As you say, they are fun. You also say STK is not a rally game, I'd add nor a F1 game. This is a fun kart game and they do add something to the STK racing experience : thanks to them, you know when someone has been hit by someone else, which informs about the race, and contributes to maintain all race long the funny atmosphere. I wish sometimes that bubble-gums were "messaged" as well so I can know when the ones I've let on the tracks are efficients... Besides, even if one doesn't have the time to read them, I don't think they are so distracting since they stay discrete.

Rank display

The rank display is substituted for a much more usable map in minimal race GUI, where icons are large enough to show where other players are, and not just which position they are on. And you have your own rank as text anyway. Really, it's so much better as there's not as much duplication of info, and the map is actually useful now.

It is, I admit, a little wobbly in actual GUI. But there is not much needed for it to be almost perfect I think. Really fun, with cool icons and funny animations ! The fact you don't see yourself if your rank is too low does not upset me : this is part of the game. Winners are on the podium, losers not, and when I lose I don't really care about my rank . If someone cares, it is shown anyway on the top left corner. From what I've seen of the minGUI's minimap rank display, it does not seem handy at all. You have to concentrate to know who is better ranked than who, and with more than 5 players near each other it is such a mess I don't even want to look at it.

Speedometer

Speedometer is of no real use, I said. A bold statement. I also thought no speedometer would be a hindrance. But really, if you are at normal top speed, and want to use nitro effectively, you just use it in small bursts as before. No use for the visual confirmation that your speed is increasing. And if you are under normal top speed, you should notice anyway and use some nitro to obtain higher speed. STK is not a rally game where you must measure the speed and lower the speed for a sharp corner. With the current physics, you aim to get highest speed possible all the time, so you don't need to know how many tux feet per second you are making.

Sincerely, who wants to play a race game without a speedometer ? And I do not agree with you concerning its usefulness : thanks to it I was able to know some gameplay subtleties : when nitro is useless, how does my speed reacts precisely to anchors, parachutes, nitro, speed boosts, ... without it, speed management would not be accurate, I think it is as needed as the nitro gauge !

There's a chance minimal race GUI will be optional in 0.7.1, so hopefully more people will "see the light" after trying it (for more than half a track; it takes some time getting used to but afterwards you'll never look back).

All of this to argue the fact I don't think minGUI must be the default GUI. As an optional GUI, I don't see any problem (put aside the facts that the dev team could use their time to do something more useful).

IMHO, of course .

[hiker]

Hi.

well, the first question to ask: have you actually used the new race gui? And admittedly a loaded question: even if you have: the new race gui isn't finished yet, Arthur has shown some screenshots of unfinished work. So at least give the new race gui a chance

Arthur, I wouldlike to react about your blog comment (sorry about the length of the message):
Messages
As you say, they are fun. You also say STK is not a rally game, I'd add nor a F1 game. This is a fun kart game and they do add something to the STK racing experience :

They might be funny the first time you see them, but they are just getting old. And then they are just a lot of text to read for not much information (not to mention the difficulty in translating those messages). And I don't think that they will tell a novice player (or someone not playing it regularly) much - except: "incomprehensible long text on bottom of screen" --> someone was hit by something.

thanks to them, you know when someone has been hit by someone else, which informs about the race, and contributes to maintain all race long the funny atmosphere. I wish sometimes that bubble-gums were "messaged" as well so I can know when the ones I've let on the tracks are efficients... Besides, even if one doesn't have the time to read them, I don't think they are so distracting since they stay discrete.

The minimal race gui will of course also inform you if someone was hit (or hit by you ... not sure atm). Ideally I would like to do both: the minimap to indicate if someone is affected, and (perhaps) an animation of the kart/driver to show when you affected someone (a sfx "Yippie" with a character animation would be great) - but the latter is too much work obviously (to get individual voices for each kart).

...

From what I've seen of the minGUI's minimap rank display, it does not seem handy at all. You have to concentrate to know who is better ranked than who, and with more than 5 players near each other it is such a mess I don't even want to look at it.

If there are 5 players next to you and you have time to look at their rank, then the game is definitely too boring.

...

Speedometer
Sincerely, who wants to play a race game without a speedometer ?

Million of people playing Mario Kart (64 and Wii) haven't complained about this, nor have I seen this mentioned negatively in any review.Mario Kart on DS and Mod Nations doesn't appear to have one either. It wasn't missed in Diddy Kong, Crash Team Racing, NASCAR Kart Racing - I could probably find more if I had time. So I would ask: "Sincerely, who wants to play a kart race game with a speedometer"?


...

There's a chance minimal race GUI will be optional in 0.7.1, so hopefully more people will "see the light" after trying it (for more than half a track; it takes some time getting used to but afterwards you'll never look back).

All of this to argue the fact I don't think minGUI must be the default GUI. As an optional GUI, I don't see any problem

Well, it is a problem for us: we have to examine each bug report in more detail to see what race gui they are using (well, if it is related only of course). This would be even worse if we made the race gui fully configurable. One additional reason why I don't want to make too many things configurable in the UI (the moment you start modifying a file you are on your own ). But I recently added a gui setting to switch between the racing displays.

(put aside the facts that the dev team could use their time to do something more useful).

Well, I totally disagree with that. Of course, if you like the current display you would consider any work on it a waste of time. I just think that it can be improved, and therefore see this as an important bit to make the game more accessible. After all, the race gui is the bit you see 90% of the time! And I still haven't spent half as much time on that as on the gettext issues we had with windows .

Cheers,
Joerg

[Kinsu]

I didn't test the new GUI, this opinion is mainly about the current one, and arguments to defend it in answer to Arthur's post
I admit that the last part (concerning the optional UI) is only a «pre-test opinion» and does not weigh a lot since it is based on a screenshot. Of course the new race GUI has to be tested before any decision, still I think some elements of the old one should not be so much denigrated.

Messages

"incomprehensible long text on bottom of screen" --> someone was hit by something

That's exactely what I mean ! I think it's cool to be reminded the "combat" sides of races even when it does not concern you directely. If minGUI there is, this feature should be I think (why not by the minimap, as you say).

and (perhaps) an animation of the kart/driver to show when you affected someone (a sfx "Yippie" with a character animation would be great) - but the latter is too much work obviously (to get individual voices for each kart).

For voices, maybe it could be possible to obtain them just recording ourselves taunts, and a little Audacity modifications... It would be a lot of work, but I would enjoy doing it !

Minimap

If there are 5 players next to you and you have time to look at their rank, then the game is definitely too boring.

Those 5 players could be far away from you... But as you say, the minimap has to be tested before any definitive judgement is done

Speedometer

Sincerely, who wants to play a race game without a speedometer ?

Sincerely, who wants to play a kart race game with a speedometer ?

This was more a joke than to be taken seriously, sorry if it was not obvious . If speedometer left the GUI, I would miss him, and gameplay would be impoverished to me.

(put aside the facts that the dev team could use their time to do something more useful).

Well, I totally disagree with that.

I was thinking to network/online races, for instance, but this is currently just a review from a player point of view, without any knowledge of the technical part. As this whole message in fact, and maybe I would have another opinion if I knew better STK's behind the scene (I am just beginning ).


EDIT : Well, I don't want this conversation to be counter-productive, so let's sum up all of this : I am not definitely against the min GUI. I just think it would be a pity to lose some cool features that the current one provides. Maybe the min GUI will offer some alternatives...

[Crendgrim]

Since I completely agree with Kinsu's opinion (I also really like those messages / the speedometer etc.), I only want to add one thing:

Million of people playing Mario Kart (64 and Wii) haven't complained about this, nor have I seen this mentioned negatively in any review.Mario Kart on DS and Mod Nations doesn't appear to have one either. It wasn't missed in Diddy Kong, Crash Team Racing, NASCAR Kart Racing - I could probably find more if I had time. So I would ask: "Sincerely, who wants to play a kart race game with a speedometer"?

This is SuperTuxKart, not some sort of MarioKart, isn't it?
So why should we try to follow the style of MarioKart if we can do better?

However, I think I want to see the minimal GUI finished before I really start to grumble about it. And IMHO it's always possible to offer both views.


Crend

[hiker]

Hi,

...

Messages

"incomprehensible long text on bottom of screen" --> someone was hit by something

That's exactely what I mean ! I think it's cool to be reminded the "combat" sides of races even when it does not concern you directely. If minGUI there is, this feature should be I think (why not by the minimap, as you say).

First I'll try to rotate the icons (admittedly because it's easy, and we want to get 0.7.1rc1 out). But we could add more information in this display, too (e.g. blend an explosion icon if that kart was hit by a cake, making it fade out if a kart is rescued, ...).

and (perhaps) an animation of the kart/driver to show when you affected someone (a sfx "Yippie" with a character animation would be great) - but the latter is too much work obviously (to get individual voices for each kart).

For voices, maybe it could be possible to obtain them just recording ourselves taunts, and a little Audacity modifications... It would be a lot of work, but I would enjoy doing it !

We had someone starting work to add kart specific sfx (he actually asked in a forum for voice actors) - unfortunately he disappeared before it was finished, and the samples he had just got very annoying after a while, so we actually disabled it.Getting good sfx would be great, but that's a really difficult work. If you are interested and capable of doing this, just open a new thread for this!

Minimap

If there are 5 players next to you and you have time to look at their rank, then the game is definitely too boring.

Those 5 players could be far away from you... But as you say, the minimap has to be tested before any definitive judgement is done

Well, if they are far away from you then you won't have overlap in the minimap, and you can see where they are.

Speedometer

Sincerely, who wants to play a race game without a speedometer ?

Sincerely, who wants to play a kart race game with a speedometer ?

This was more a joke than to be taken seriously, sorry if it was not obvious . If speedometer left the GUI, I would miss him, and gameplay would be impoverished to me.

Don't worry, I wasn't too serious here either

(put aside the facts that the dev team could use their time to do something more useful).

Well, I totally disagree with that.

I was thinking to network/online races, for instance, but this is currently just a review from a player point of view, without any knowledge of the technical part. As this whole message in fact, and maybe I would have another opinion if I knew better STK's behind the scene (I am just beginning ).

Certainly network playing is the thing I am most keen on implementing as well, but it has a 'natural' order of dependencies: network plays needs good prediction of kart positions (to reduce the amount and the frequency of information over the network), which in turn depends on the physics, which we have to fix first. Admittedly if we had enough developers, that could be done at the same time, or even start with networking, and adjust it to the final physics later - but with just two developers I try to avoid anything that needs to be tweaked/fixed later.

EDIT : Well, I don't want this conversation to be counter-productive, so let's sum up all of this : I am not definitely against the min GUI. I just think it would be a pity to lose some cool features that the current one provides. Maybe the min GUI will offer some alternatives...

Don't worry - I wanted opinions about the new race gui (though I would have preferred a bit later ). And at least I'll leave both GUIs in for now, selectable in the options screen.

And for what's it worth, here a work-in-progress picture of the split screen mode with the new GUI:

.

I am not entirely sure of the placement of the rank and lap for the lower two karts, perhaps they should be moved to the left/right side instead of at the bottom (any comments)?

Cheers,
Joerg

[sj04736]

I'm not a fan of the consistency of the 4-player ui. I would go with:
rank in top left for frames on the left,
lap in bottom left for frames on the left
rank in top right for frames on right,
lap in bottom right for frames on right.
Time in top, center.
Minimap @ approx 80% size.

[hiker]

I'm not a fan of the consistency of the 4-player ui. I would go with:
rank in top left for frames on the left,
lap in bottom left for frames on the left
rank in top right for frames on right,
lap in bottom right for frames on right.
Time in top, center.
Minimap @ approx 80% size.

Good point - I've looked too long at various version of that screen I have to check the minimap with more realistic resolutions (it scales differently iirc), that was on 800x600. Re time: what about single player and two player split screen? We can't put it in the middle since this is where the items are. Probably just leave it the way it is atm (time top right, rank top left, laps bottom left)?

Cheers,
Joerg

[sj04736]

For two player, is it split down the middle vertically [][] or
horizontally?
[ ]
[ ]

If it's vertical, I would keep the lap/rank on the outer edges, time in center. If horizontally... Hmmm.... rank top left, laps bottom left, time top right, minimap either bottom or middle right. It would seem unfair to obscure the bottom screen unfairly. But in the middle, I don't think it would look visually balanced.

[Kinsu]

rank in top left for frames on the left,
lap in bottom left for frames on the left
rank in top right for frames on right,
lap in bottom right for frames on right.
Time in top, center.
Minimap @ approx 80% size.

I agree 100% ! Maybe a little font scaling (which depends on the chosen resolution) would enable a space gain. Not sure it would be useful, though : I don't think many players run STK in 800x600.

If horizontally... Hmmm.... rank top left, laps bottom left, time top right, minimap either bottom or middle right.

If horizontally I think the solo GUI placements could be kept for the rank and laps. Maybe the minimap on the middle left, as the eye naturally goes from the top left corner to the bottom right, perhaps it wouldn't be too unbalanced... tests are required

[hiker]

For two player, is it split down the middle vertically [][] or
horizontally?
[ ]
[ ]

It's horizontally. Someone tried vertical splitting (with the argument that it's better on wide-screens), but admitted after trying it that horizontal splitting is better.

If horizontally... Hmmm.... rank top left, laps bottom left, time top right, minimap either bottom or middle right. It would seem unfair to obscure the bottom screen unfairly. But in the middle, I don't think it would look visually balanced.

For two players I put minimap middle left, timer at top left, and rank/lap on the right side. And I think I took all of your previous comments into account.

BTW, on SVN you can easily test this - just define 3 more keyboard settings (and remember what the fire and forward button is ).

Cheers,
Joerg

[hiker]

I agree 100% ! Maybe a little font scaling (which depends on the chosen resolution) would enable a space gain. Not sure it would be useful, though :

Done so far. We actually removed font scaling, since the fonts just look pretty bad when scaled

I don't think many players run STK in 800x600.

*grin* I do ... at least on my development laptop

...

If horizontally I think the solo GUI placements could be kept for the rank and laps. Maybe the minimap on the middle left, as the eye naturally goes from the top left corner to the bottom right, perhaps it wouldn't be too unbalanced... tests are required

That's pretty much what I did. We hope to have a RC soonish (a few days we hope), so you can have a look yourself - and perhaps provide more feedback!

Cheers,
Joerg

[Kinsu]

Great !

Just a detail (sorry about always being perfectionist )

I put minimap middle left, timer at top left

So the bottom player will have to take a look to the top screen, maybe it could be placed on the middle right or middle center instead to avoid this .

the fonts just look pretty bad when scaled

Ah yes, I saw fonts are stored in png, so the down-scale must create some alias effect... Is the font originally in pixel format or is it a required for display in Irrlicht ?

I don't think many players run STK in 800x600.

*grin* I do ... at least on my development laptop

Haha, I didn't include developers in players since they are the ones able to fix those problems

We hope to have a RC soonish (a few days we hope), so you can have a look yourself - and perhaps provide more feedback!

Cool, I will ! I will also try to finish Emule before the release, I think I'll have to spend some time dealing with Blender animations features !

[hiker]

Great !

Just a detail (sorry about always being perfectionist )

Perfectionist is good

I put minimap middle left, timer at top left

So the bottom player will have to take a look to the top screen, maybe it could be placed on the middle right or middle center instead to avoid this .

The karts are in the middle center, can't put it there for two players. Middle left is ok I think (besides potentially unbalanced looks (as someone has mentioned here previously), but it's probably more balanced this way than having the minimap in a corner. Both players have to look to the left now, the top player a little bit down, the bottom player a little bit up - I think that's fair enough.

the fonts just look pretty bad when scaled

Ah yes, I saw fonts are stored in png, so the down-scale must create some alias effect... Is the font originally in pixel format or is it a required for display in Irrlicht ?

Irrlicht (atm) only supports bitmapped fonts.

I don't think many players run STK in 800x600.

*grin* I do ... at least on my development laptop

Haha, I didn't include developers in players since they are the ones able to fix those problems

I do this mostly since my laptop is a bit old and I am using debug builds, which run slower anyway.

We hope to have a RC soonish (a few days we hope), so you can have a look yourself - and perhaps provide more feedback!

Cool, I will ! I will also try to finish Emule before the release, I think I'll have to spend some time dealing with Blender animations features !

I don't think you will have much chance to get this in 0.7.1 - a kart needs some testing to make sure the physics aren't that bad, and you will probably need a few iterations of minor bug fixes as well. And we wont' change much after a rc. But I would be glad to use the new news service of STK to announce Emule inside STK And make this the first kart to be available on our addon web page (for 0.7.1).

Cheers,
Joerg

[Kinsu]

I put minimap middle left, timer at top left

So the bottom player will have to take a look to the top screen, maybe it could be placed on the middle right or middle center instead to avoid this

Sorry, I was not clear enough : I was talking about the timer, not the minimap.

Irrlicht (atm) only supports bitmapped fonts.

This is a pity ! So to avoid the down-scale alias problem, we would have to use a resized bitmap version of the font...

I do this mostly since my laptop is a bit old and I am using debug builds, which run slower anyway

I also have a slow laptop, this is a good way to test if a program is not too heavy and can run on small hardware configs

I don't think you will have much chance to get this in 0.7.1 - a kart needs some testing to make sure the physics aren't that bad, and you will probably need a few iterations of minor bug fixes as well.

Oh, I didn't know I'd have to configure physics... I definitely have to take a look to the kart exporter.

[hiker]

I don't think you will have much chance to get this in 0.7.1 - a kart needs some testing to make sure the physics aren't that bad, and you will probably need a few iterations of minor bug fixes as well.

Oh, I didn't know I'd have to configure physics... I definitely have to take a look to the kart exporter.

No, you are probably fine with the default settings (kart specific settings are not planned before 0.8*), but e.g. it might be that the (physics) wheel or suspension is too small, the kart might be too high, something bumps onto the ground while driving, ... . Probably not, but I don't want to risk to rush in a kart that might have some issues so close to a release.

Cheers,
Joerg

[Kinsu]

Alright, I'll try exporting the kart this weekend to see how it behaves.