Xonotic vs Red Eclipse

[inpersona64]

Huh? Apart from the parkour map I never saw anyone use wall running, the maps dont encourage it. That's not trolling it's an observation.
The only 2 where it was/is useful is the tiny one like "Facing Worlds" if you know what I mean, and the one with the red death laser things going across, I cant remember the map names but I'm sure you're familiar with them.

Either you only play against bots or you only play against newcomers. Everyone I know uses wall-run in pretty much any map that has..well..walls. I've effectively used wall-run in Ghost, Echo, Keystone, Linear (under flag spawn where the grenades spawn), and every other major competitive map. FROGTEAM makes great use of the walls as well, and my leader, Wazubaba, can't help but go wallrunning+jump off a wall just to stick the broad edge of a sword in my cranium..

Anyway, you should get into games with us when we play. We can show you real RE gameplay.

[rocknroll237]

Chillax...

[Phy83r0pt1k]

I've always wall ran every match i played since 1.0 and personally find it better and more skill demanding in 1.0.

[PSYKORGASM]

Either you only play against bots or you only play against newcomers. Everyone I know uses wall-run in pretty much any map that has..well..walls. I've effectively used wall-run in Ghost, Echo, Keystone, Linear (under flag spawn where the grenades spawn), and every other major competitive map. FROGTEAM makes great use of the walls as well, and my leader, Wazubaba, can't help but go wallrunning+jump off a wall just to stick the broad edge of a sword in my cranium..
Anyway, you should get into games with us when we play. We can show you real RE gameplay.

Ah no no, I did play quite a lot before I had to end up pretty much building a new rig, always online and I never saw anybody use them and the maps didn't urge you to make use of them.
The wall running is really fun though, I just dont think there is much opportunity to use them to really gain anything, wall running is unique and I think it should be made more important but without being pushy. I mean anyone could get on RE and never wall run ever and still do just as well as anybody else. It's a shame I think.

Chillax...

I would but it seems fluxturd has some issues.
I just went over to see some reviews on Xonotic and guess who I found...

It did make me laugh, credit where credit's due(seriously), that's a nice review on RE.

But...

Keep trying there.. maybe one day if you create enough accounts you could make WSW score go down

[fluxord]

Yeah, so what. I like RE, and I wasn't the only to vote 1 on those games
I only have 1 account there, and I don't use it anyway.

Keep trying there.. maybe one day if you create enough accounts you could make WSW score go down

Oh I didn't think about that. Are you speaking from your personal experience maybe? Perhaps do you have more accounts there?

To make things clear for everyone:

• I only joined desura because of RE, to stay in contact with the community/guys.
• I don't care much about ratings. So I picked up the first thought I had, and voted on games.
• And I use it rarely.

Now if you come here and cry around because of a stupid vote that I have cast on a game... Fine, I really don't care.
I'm not a dev member nor anything really important in this community and certainly I don't want to continue this fighting bullshit over this thread.
I have better things to do.

So, if it pleases you I'll go and change the votes for those games. To something like 8, 9 or so.

Love & Peace!

[PSYKORGASM]

Hehe now I am trolling with the votes since you seemed to have been trolling me, counter trolling I believe? Who knows :P
I didn't literally mean you had more then one account btw. I do not have any accounts there unfortunately, don't really intend on it either.

No need to explain why you are on there I am not making fun or questioning anything, I just found it amusing that on the same day as this thread is created you go out of your way to rate those 2 specific 1, you can see how that may look to someone looking in right? I personally thought you had specially gone out of your way to "stick it to 'em"

No no don't change the votes, I just find it weird you seem to have so much deep seeded hate towards these quake style games that you express in this thread and go out of your way elsewhere, it's odd.

[inpersona64]

Yeah, so what. I like RE, and I wasn't the only to vote 1 on those games
I only have 1 account there, and I don't use it anyway.

Keep trying there.. maybe one day if you create enough accounts you could make WSW score go down

Oh I didn't think about that. Are you speaking from your personal experience maybe? Perhaps do you have more accounts there?

To make things clear for everyone:

• I only joined desura because of RE, to stay in contact with the community/guys.
• I don't care much about ratings. So I picked up the first thought I had, and voted on games.
• And I use it rarely.

Now if you come here and cry around because of a stupid vote that I have cast on a game... Fine, I really don't care.
I'm not a dev member nor anything really important in this community and certainly I don't want to continue this fighting bullshit over this thread.
I have better things to do.

So, if it pleases you I'll go and change the votes for those games. To something like 8, 9 or so.

Love & Peace!

I think this thread can lock now. The community has spoken on their thoughts of Xonotic vs Red Eclipse (FTW) lol

[PSYKORGASM]

Eh I was just about to edit my post to agree to stop this.
Lock is probably a better idea, sorry guys

[ZeroKnight]

Erm...heated debate aside I'ma say what I was going to from yesterday, but didn't get the chance to:

nobody has ever made anything to replace it. Don't like something? [. . .] give it a shot and let us all decide if its better than what we have

QFT. This is how Open Source games really thrive, is by community interaction and volunteering. The beauty of open source vs closed source is the quality! With closed source, you have to rely on devs alone to implement things. But with open source, anyone and everyone can, and is encouraged to contribute things! Everyone can throw ideas and opinions around, and things that are liked the most are usually put into the game, making it more enjoyable for a lot of people. With everything userbase suggested and/or implemented, the quality increases by so much.

Hell, I don't know how many know of the thread's existence, but I made my own texture for the Rifle's scope, as I didn't like the vanilla one. If you're curious, search for it.
I figured the compasses weren't being used to their potential, so that's why I'm writing my Extended Compass mod/extension. If I was skilled with GFX, then you can bet your ass I'd be contributing models and textures.

Anyway, I just wanted to throw that out there, because quin couldn't be more correct.

[EDIT]
Oh right, I tend to wall run somewhat frequently. I don't make it my mission, but whenever it's convenient and/or strategic to do so, I will run along a wall to get around someone or to throw them off. Running along a wall that's much higher than your enemy is a very nice way to attack without being seen immediately, and (pardon the pun :P) get the drop on them. (Kung-Fu Lessons, anyone?)

Also, I don't think this thread needs a lock. The bickering just needs to stop, or be reformed into opinions/criticism that doesn't have malice behind it. It's fine to disagree, but it's not quite so fine to start getting angry and insulting about it. ^_~

[qreeves]

Thanks for getting us back on topic ZeroKnight. I won't lock the thread quite yet. I think we've just had a slight clash of personalities here (and from what I can see, a slight bit of internet miscommunication [sarcasm guys, you can't always see it]). I believe everyone is over it now and can put it behind them like mature community members

I use parkour a lot, sometimes to the point where I teach "pros" in the community a thing or two (then again, I did develop it, haha). I remember once, D.A.M.I.E.N. saw me fall down in the center of "darkness", but I saved myself with a wall-run/kick/boost/climb/boost combo and came back up on him from behind (he'd left me for dead). It's really all about how you're using it, and the skill of the players you're playing against. Sure, if you're playing against a bunch of people who aren't using parkour, then they're all gonna be on an even level together and certainly not need to use the skill to kill each other.

But again, that's the beauty of RE. You can pick it up and play it without needing to master these moves, but there's a certain benefit to doing so. Plus, you don't want to have to be using them all the time either (partly because impulse is limited and requires regeneration). This was actually one complaint I had when playing Warsow, there was way too much focus on requiring advanced skills from the get-go, because otherwise it was basically unplayable.

That being said, I doubt you'd ever get a proper competitive game of this going without needing to use your parkour skills a little.

[inpersona64]

I use parkour a lot, sometimes to the point where I teach "pros" in the community a thing or two (then again, I did develop it, haha). I remember once, D.A.M.I.E.N. saw me fall down in the center of "darkness", but I saved myself with a wall-run/kick/boost/climb/boost combo and came back up on him from behind (he'd left me for dead). It's really all about how you're using it, and the skill of the players you're playing against. Sure, if you're playing against a bunch of people who aren't using parkour, then they're all gonna be on an even level together and certainly not need to use the skill to kill each other.

This actually reminds me, on the map linear, lets say Insta-CTF for example, I would use that same combo to climb to the base to get the flag because snipers across the map usually expect you to use the jump pad to score and a nice snipe can send the flag flying a thousand meters in the air. Not a lot of people think 'parkour' and for those who do, well, lets just say we're playing a different kind of Red Eclipse. A free and open version that allows for pretty much any kind of maneuver you can think of. That's one of the reason I pimp out this game so hard on my channel. The other reason is because it runs better than Halo ha!

[qreeves]

.. can send the flag flying a thousand meters in the air ..

It's times like those I sit there watching the flag flying in the air like a proud little developer, and am thankful I turned the flag into a projectile rather than just having it drop to the floor. Usually gets me killed though.

[Samual]

Hello everyone,

I am one of the core Xonotic developers - and i'd like to address some things said here and HOPEFULLY ignore the trolls :P

Firstly, I would like to point out that Xonotic itself actually is much earlier relatively in a development stage compared to Red Eclipse when you consider RE's history and its origins. Our game is much less finished than RE, and we still have a lot we want to do.

To address those who dislike bunnyhopping and such... That's okay, and you can dislike that, however I know many people who love that still (including me) and that's just my own personal slice of cake, you know? I like Red Eclipse as well, but still much prefer Xonotics movement with that respect. Also, both of our games are very fast and agile with the proper knowledge of how the gameplay works. (Yes, even Xonotic too, there are just different tricks than that of RE) -- There's no point in arguing this as it's really just a "I prefer this instead of this" argument. And regarding the point of "bunnyhopping makes no sense" -- yes, but it's still fun to many. We have tried systems extremely similar to the impulse system in RE, and our community outright rejected it immediately... So clearly these are simply out of preference. On the other hand, with gunplay... I really quite disagree here... In my personal opinion: With Xonotic, the gunplay is much more dynamic, and the weapons feel much more solid than that of Red Eclipse. They have more of a tactical aspect with Xonotic, and are far more unique for each respective weapon. But again, many players may want more simple gameplay, so it's like comparing apples and pears in some ways.

By the way, about vehicles... those are EXTREMELY experimental and early -- however I can say they actually do fit with the gameplay in most respects. The biggest concerns are fixing the bugs remaining with them, finish making new sounds for them, creating at least 2 good maps for them, and finally balancing out the vehicles with the main weapons.. Until we really say this is done, we sincerely don't consider it such an advantage over other opensource games yet. Speaking of mapping though, this is one area where we both have advantages and disadvantages... For Red Eclipse, it is easier to make simple decent looking maps than Xonotic.. however with NetRadiant (Xonotic's map creator) it is actually possible to make smooth and flowing/organic maps, where cube2 cannot handle this well at all. Essentially, although it takes more effort, it is much more possible for better maps to be made with Xonotic than with Red Eclipse.

oh and of course, we all have the same issues with placeholders.... There are LOTS of those in any opensource game :P I've made so many things in this game which were really meant to be a placeholder, and were BAD because they were made by a programmer just as qreeves noted.

In summary, we both have great games, and I really enjoy Red Eclipse too, but I do have one major question: Howcome BOTH of our games have relatively small communities still? Sure there are many players globally who also talk that they like our games a lot, but both of our main multi-player servers are empty a lot of the time if we look at statistics. Additionally, comparing this with other games like Urban Terror, Warsow, Open Arena, and even Nexuiz (The original project which Xonotic is from... HOPEFULLY all of you know this story so I won't need to explain) or Sauerbraten, it's weird that we're still behind even though we're clearly at least on par if not better than most of these projects... I won't say specifically as I don't want to flame someones projects. ;D

BTW, shame on the person who votes 1 for open source games.. When you can do it better yourself, then I grant you that privilage... But otherwise you are scum in my book.

Anyway, thanks for the kind (or even not so kind) remarks, to me I always like hearing feedback even if it's from another crowd. Sincerely though, we should all be on the same team, not arguing against eachother in such petty ways. We all want fun free games, and it doesn't help anyone by bickering on forum websites.

[ZeroKnight]

^ I always found that very humorous, haha

[EDIT] That was supposed to be at what quin said! I didn't see his post, I got ninja'd D:
I do hope no one took that the wrong way, haha...

[riidom]

Samual, thanks for the answer and for registering here to be able to answer. Good to hear something from Xonotic's side as well.
I dont have to add something substantial right now, so.. nice sunday everyone! ;-)

[rocknroll237]

Wow, this thread has become larger than I expected!

I think you've all made very interesting points.

Cam

PS Do you think it's time to close the thread, or should we keep it open a little longer?

[inpersona64]

On the other hand, with gunplay... I really quite disagree here... In my personal opinion: With Xonotic, the gunplay is much more dynamic, and the weapons feel much more solid than that of Red Eclipse. They have more of a tactical aspect with Xonotic, and are far more unique for each respective weapon. But again, many players may want more simple gameplay, so it's like comparing apples and pears in some ways.

Sincerely though, we should all be on the same team, not arguing against each other in such petty ways..

*cocks pistol*
I suppose he is right. And i do like the apples and pears reference
*taking aim*
I have to say, it really is nice to have a dev of another game come and share thoughts because now we all fully understand what each dev is aiming for and why.
*fires at mirror*
Who'd you think I was gonna shoot at?

[sireus]

Hello everyone,
but I do have one major question: Howcome BOTH of our games have relatively small communities still? Sure there are many players globally who also talk that they like our games a lot, but both of our main multi-player servers are empty a lot of the time if we look at statistics. Additionally, comparing this with other games like Urban Terror, Warsow, Open Arena, and even Nexuiz (The original project which Xonotic is from... HOPEFULLY all of you know this story so I won't need to explain) or Sauerbraten

Some kind of market saturation, I guess :P And, as you said, both projects are still pretty young compared to games like Sauer, which IIRC is about 10 years old now if you count in Cube 1, so I recommend you wait a little before giving up ;)
Btw, you forgot AssaultCube in that list.

[ZeroKnight]

I don't think Samual could be any more right either. His last point about working together is my favorite one. Why? Because we're both open source! It's about collaboration ;D

And you know, if I had a better system, I would love to try out Xonotic, because I like to give a lot of games a chance (especially open source ones), and honestly, it just looks fun. (which is the point of a game :P) Alas, I have trouble running even Red Eclipse at a solid high FPS, so I don't think I'll have much luck with Xonotic ;P

[orbitaldecay]

Hello everyone,
but I do have one major question: Howcome BOTH of our games have relatively small communities still? Sure there are many players globally who also talk that they like our games a lot, but both of our main multi-player servers are empty a lot of the time if we look at statistics. Additionally, comparing this with other games like Urban Terror, Warsow, Open Arena, and even Nexuiz (The original project which Xonotic is from... HOPEFULLY all of you know this story so I won't need to explain) or Sauerbraten

Some kind of market saturation, I guess :P And, as you said, both projects are still pretty young compared to games like Sauer, which IIRC is about 10 years old now if you count in Cube 1, so I recommend you wait a little before giving up
Btw, you forgot AssaultCube in that list.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Red Eclipse and Xonotic are very young compared to these games. Urban Terror was originally released as a q3 mod 10 years ago, though the community is completely different today (man that makes me feel old). Open Arena, Nexiuz and Warsow are at least 5-6 years old. Considering Red Eclipse is only a few months old and already has a pretty viable player base, I'd say its going well A strong player base takes time to cultivate. I think the biggest obstacle to a successful open source game is actually sticking with it - most of them stop getting developed in < 1 year.

[qreeves]

When people talk about RE's history, they refer to the fact that this is all basically a continuation of the SauerBot project I started like 5 years ago. It's morphed a few times since; SauerMod (fps bots and a side scroller for Cube 2), Blood Frontier ("zombie" game, copyrighted assets), then Red Eclipse. Quite a few of our regulars are from the Blood Frontier era, which goes back about 3 years. That being said, Red Eclipse has always been seen as a kind of "rebirth" of the project, with a focus on community driven assets and input (something I wanted from the beginning). I not only want to focus on the core of making a good game to play, but also share the ability to create that; with open assets and open source code that anyone can use, as well as direct modification and contribution to the game.

I never intended to encourage this thread into a flamewar, or a troll between which is better. What I think is that a post-analysis during break periods is a great way to take a different look at our own game; the way it works, the way things differ, if anything could be done better. What happens at the same time is that people become defensive about the gameplay style they prefer, which is not our goal here. I apologise on behalf of the Red Eclipse community to the Xonotic developers for any actions or words exchanged by the people in this thread. I don't really want to censor the freedom of speech here, but I do ask everyone to remain civil and refrain from personal attacks.

In no way do I see other open source games as rivals, we are all working toward the same goal with different variations. Red Eclipse has its own properties which make it attractive to its own set of users, as do other games. I've always believed the quality of a community is better than a community of quantity anyway. We thrive on community. Community driven gameplay. Communtiy driven feedback. Community driven publicity. Community driven sense of honour (heh). Sure, it'd be nice to have more people to play, and each release we get a fresh burst of people playing to satiate our frag-lust. This is where one tenant of open source development is true; release early, release often. Keep things rolling, show progress, inspire people. That's all you can do.

[qreeves]

I think the biggest obstacle to a successful open source game is actually sticking with it - most of them stop getting developed in < 1 year.

Quite true. I develop in spurts; sometimes putting in 18 hours a day for a month, then six months just poking at the code and doing nothing very useful (this is me at the moment). It's a good time to just play the game, get amongst the people who play and support it, and decompress from the hard work of being a developer.

[NetMassimo]

Some interesting points about free / open source games development and the importance of community.

I don't feel comfortable in comparing Xonotic and Red Eclipse: I wish I had the time to quickly test all the options of both games but alas I have little. I barely tried Xonotic 0.5!

Anyway a bit of rivalry can be good if it means the a game developers check the development of other games to see if there are interesting features to add. Of course when it's turned into "my game is the bestest ever, your game is crap" it's just stupid.

Concerning the sort of projects selection, some projects may be created just because someone wants certain features they can't find in other games but after a while they're tired of developing a new game, they don't have time, they can't agree on its developmente, whatever. Good project go on and keep players' interest alive. After some years the development can get slower (see Open Arena) when the features are well established.

I think that an important set of good maps included with he game can help. For example I tried Sauerbraten only last year and I was astonished by the huge set of terrific maps it has! Needless to say I'm playing Red Eclipse using those maps too thanks to the useful option that automatically includes them in the list.

Just my 2 cents.

[inpersona64]

Community driven publicity.

I'd love to be on that payroll

[fluxord]

Hello everyone,
but I do have one major question: Howcome BOTH of our games have relatively small communities still? Sure there are many players globally who also talk that they like our games a lot, but both of our main multi-player servers are empty a lot of the time if we look at statistics. Additionally, comparing this with other games like Urban Terror, Warsow, Open Arena, and even Nexuiz (The original project which Xonotic is from... HOPEFULLY all of you know this story so I won't need to explain) or Sauerbraten

Some kind of market saturation, I guess :P And, as you said, both projects are still pretty young compared to games like Sauer, which IIRC is about 10 years old now if you count in Cube 1, so I recommend you wait a little before giving up
Btw, you forgot AssaultCube in that list.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Red Eclipse and Xonotic are very young compared to these games. Urban Terror was originally released as a q3 mod 10 years ago, though the community is completely different today (man that makes me feel old). Open Arena, Nexiuz and Warsow are at least 5-6 years old. Considering Red Eclipse is only a few months old and already has a pretty viable player base, I'd say its going well A strong player base takes time to cultivate. I think the biggest obstacle to a successful open source game is actually sticking with it - most of them stop getting developed in < 1 year.

I recall a great article on this matter (but more generally for commercial software), that I've read several years ago, called Good Software Takes Ten Years. Get Used To it. (by Joel Spolski). The author cites several mistakes that most devs/companies do. From TFA the Mistake Nr. 1, 2 and 6 are quite relevant when it comes to games (IMHO though). Mistake Nr. 5 was done by 3D realms with DNF, everybody knows how it ended .

To quote TFA:

• "When you release 1.0, you might want to actually keep it kind of quiet. Let the early adopters find it. If you market it and promote it too heavily, when people see what you've actually done, they will be underwhelmed."
• "Too-frequent upgrades (a.k.a. the Corel Syndrome). At the beginning, when you're adding new features and you don't have a lot of existing customers, you'll be able to release a new version every 6 months or so, and people will love you for the new features. After four or five releases like that, you have to slow down, or your existing customers will stop upgrading. They'll skip releases because they don't want the pain or expense of upgrading. Once they skip a release, they'll start to convince themselves that, hey, they don't always need the latest and greatest."

Resuming the article: "Don't get too hung up on your version 1 and don't think, for a minute, that you have any hope of reaching large markets with your first version. Good software, like wine, takes time."

BTW, that article is now 10 years old too.

Assides from that, like orbitaldecay said, get development going guys (both RE and Xonotic)


PS: now that I'm considerated a major troll & ***hole, I want to point out that I've changed my ratings on the games, and yes I apologize for my thoughtless comments/behaviour (the last thing I need is a Warsow admin/dev coming here complaining 'bout my stupid ratings... )

Peace & have fun fragging!