POLL: Campaign Mode, or Survival Mode? (or Mashup?)

[greaserpirate]

I like the idea of a flythrough for the Alphacampaign map. It makes it into a sort of memory game, so if you remember the path of the camera's flight you can solve it with little frustration insgtead of wandering around for a few minuttes and giving up.

I was thinking: what if we had a survival mode where players have to cross from one flag to the other across a sea of enemies to score points, but they can't spawn inside the bases within a certain radius of the palyerspawns. Crossing gives you points but dying makes you lose them.

Also, we do have a lot of time-trial maps, and those are just a couple turrets and a script away from campaign missions. In other words, we have the technology.

[favorito]

As much as I'd love to see a Free software first-person shooter rekindle the same sensations Doom or Wolf3d gave through their gameplay and level design (which hasn't been done since I might add), I think the scope is just too grandiose for a community like ours; we just don't have the resources. Even more unrealistic would be some "campaign" driven through explicit narrative and whatnot a la Call of Duty or any of its ilk (Besides, implicit narrative is the far superior method by which to tell a story in a video game anyway; see ludonarrative. Red Eclipse has been conveying narrative to the player all along in this sense.).

Consequently then, I think JoJo's idea here is our best bet, which would allow us to reuse a lot of our graphical assets (as well as maps, etc.), and would give Quin room to work:
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=2263#p23284

Something akin to UT2K4's Onslaught mode with its destructible "nodes" (which would also be spawning monsters and attempting to protect itself in our rendition of the idea - think Doom II's Icon of Sin shooting out those little skull cubes and spawning enemies on the floor where they land) would be neat. The team who works their way across the map to the end, destroying any sequence of nodes connecting the two bases together, and the enemy "boss node" at the end would win. For the "singleplayer" or "coop" version, the nodes wouldn't have to be symmetrical across the map, so more interesting layouts could be thought up.

(See attachment)
(Top - singleplayer - the big circle is the boss node)
(Bottom - multiplayer - the blue team is in the lead)

We could also have the nodes only vulnerable to certain guns, ie, "purple nodes are weakest against the rifle", and other variations indicated through mapmodel or some other visible or audial characteristic. I could imagine situations with a lot of ludonarrative potential - "Oh shoot, the nodes with the spikes are invulnerable to grenades and rockets, I'd better hurry back and find another gun before the horde gets me." "The spherical-looking nodes spawn more enemies when I shoot fire at it, I'd better try something else." My examples are a bit non-sequitur, but then again the whole game is, lol, so it's not really an issue.

If we were to take this route, we'd probably need a few different types of nodes, and a handful of different enemies. For enemies, ones with some uniqueness in how they fight or how you take them down would be neat. Make one that shoots lightning across the geometry forcing you to jump over it. Or one that punches you and sends you flying across the room. Or one that pounds the floor and makes players drop the gun they're holding. Or one with a weak spot on its back. Left 4 Dead's "special infected" would be good role models here (although, we should think of our own unique designs, even though the principle behind them would be equivalent to L4D's).

I have a lot of faith in Quin though. Quin: I think regardless of what you choose to do, keep it in the spirit of a lot of the other more unorthodox mechanics and design choices RE employs. Let's be original and genre-bending. I also think any idea with a lot of ludonarrative potential and replay value would be a wise choice. In many ways these two reasons are why the game's multiplayer is so fun.

Regards,
-Favorito

[TheLastProject]

Wall of text

That sounded pretty interesting, especially a multiplayer version of this sounds great. In multiplayer both teams would have the same amount of nodes to destroy on their route and the team who does it first wins? Would be great if you could also attack enemies to give them a harder time to destroy the nodes. In the case that nobody wins within the time limit, I would say the team that destroyed most nodes should win. If both teams have destroyed the same amount, overtime should be activated until one team destroys another node or the 5 minutes are over.

I'm personally quite interested in your idea (even more than the one by Jojo) but I wonder how much work it is, it sounds like a lot. We don't even have decent models for most of the weapons yet so I don't think this can be worked on soon, at least, not with more than just placeholders.

[qreeves]

Sounds interesting. If I can get my crap sorted out and finally pay fleeky for the player model, I'm sure he'd be interested in being hired for more models. I've been having serious money issues lately, and I am just about to make the move back to Victoria which will make things temporarily worse.

[TheLastProject]

Sounds interesting. If I can get my crap sorted out and finally pay fleeky for the player model, I'm sure he'd be interested in being hired for more models. I've been having serious money issues lately, and I am just about to make the move back to Victoria which will make things temporarily worse.

That settles it then. To anyone having some spare money and wanting high-quality models in Red Eclipse: donate!
I wish you all the best by the way, quin, hope everything works out fine.

[inpersona64]

Sounds interesting. If I can get my crap sorted out and finally pay fleeky for the player model, I'm sure he'd be interested in being hired for more models. I've been having serious money issues lately, and I am just about to make the move back to Victoria which will make things temporarily worse.

That settles it then. To anyone having some spare money and wanting high-quality models in Red Eclipse: donate!

+1
I want to help. Hey, maybe you could fill out one of those http://www.chipin.com/ forms. Makes everything real easy, if you're interested.

EDIT:
I just realized there is a "Donate" button on the Red Eclipse main page.

[ZeroKnight]

If I can land actually land a job in the near future, I'd be more than happy to send you some dinero, quin :P
favorito brings up really good points. I felt the same way, but sorta played devil's advocate to narrow down between two ideas that came up at the time I made the thread.

Anyway, I'm on the same page as favorito, and I always have been. I really don't think it's feasible for a mostly multiplayer driven game with an (unfortunately) small dev team to make something like a campaign mode. There's so many elements, and so much work involved, and like favorito said, we really lack the resources. I also believe that we can indeed do a lot with what we already have, and that it is within our ability to create what we still need.

I agree fully with favorito's ideas, and the way he describes it sort of plays along with a "survival" type idea, but with a possible way to win, or a goal of some sort; or those "nodes" could even be just a harder aspect of survival and add the need for a particular strategy, and add the "make-or-break" situations that all survival modes need :P
There's really not much more to say, he makes really good points, all of which I agree with. Ultimately, it will rely on Quin, and us as a community to provide feedback, support, criticism, and ideally content/code.

And hey. If you like Red Eclipse, and you've got a buck or two, send it quin's way. This guy works insanely hard on this project, and isn't in the greatest financial shape. Just like any other FOSS project, show your appreciation with a few bucks.

/disorganized rant

[wowie]

It's a cliché featured in more than enough games, yet everyone still enjoys it(myself included): being that one guy that saves the world(s)

campaign idea: You accidentally start the 4th world war (operation red eclipse went horribly wrong. you (and your team) fouled it up yourself(yourselves)) and now have to somehow fix your error before the entire solar system is destroyed. No aliens. No terrorists. No nazis. Just you and your own stupid mess. (previous paragraph is read in a dark, serious tone)

feel free to ignore this post

-----------------------------------------------------

sorry for double post i'm using a mobile device and will edit these together later

I know a traditional campaign will probably never happen, so if/when a survival mode gets added, add some element to make it stand out and deserve its own mode (I like favorito's ideas here.)

regardless of which modes get added, make sure freerunning is a useful and fun element of play. in my opinion the mechanic isn't used enough.

feel free to ignore this post

edit: edited together, plus other stuff not worth mentioning.

[Dratz-_C]

qreeves,
I am willing to send you the little I have in my PayPal account. Which of these options should I pick? I am leaning toward the first way but can use the second way if that is how your account is set up.

I'm paying for goods or services
$0.00 USD fee. Free for you. The seller pays the fees.

or

I'm sending money to family or friends
$0.08 USD fee if you use your PayPal balance.

Cheers

[raiden]

I voted for survival, also. I have not much to say, beside two ideas in detail.

1.)It's not really new, but we could implement a turret placer. It's like a new gun, not thought as a gun, but as a placer for gun turrets. This would totally change or influence the gameflow and change it to a more tactical feeling. The ultimate reference for such a system is the Unreal 3 "sentinel mutator" - a downloadable mod, or the Chaos ut2004 mod, which had also these turrets. So it is not my idea, but this is worth to give it some thought. Indeed it's more a mutator.
2.)Also not new but interesting: a collectable item (powerup), which gives the player a fat and mighty battlesuit. The player moves very slow, but has much armor and firepower. In teamgames there is only one suit for each team. Instead of a suit, the player could grow up to a giant. A gamemode where all players fight against the only uppowered one is also thinkable.

Both points could be usefull for a survival mode.

[wowie]

{GAH I HAD TO RETYPE THE ENTIRE POST BECAUSE I ACCIDENTALLY DELETED IT GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH}

I'm resurrecting this thread because I had an idea that I think is interesting:

Red Eclipse is unrealistic. Environments, movement, weapons, everything... But it's that way for a reason: audiences prefer unrealistic warfare!

Red Eclipse is actually an augmented reality sport that is very popular in the distant future that has very flexible rules. A multiplayer match isn't just a multiplayer match ,i'ts a multiplayer match. People shout at their TV screens edit2: holo-projectors, skip work to watch games live, wear their favorite team colors everywhere they go, etc. ...sounds weird, right? WRONG! People already do it now, except they shout at different people playing different games. This way, there is also no need for a campaign storyline either, because there is no story. It's really a spectacle, some of the best players in the solar system beating down as many non-sentient robots as money can buy. Shooting each other sounds like a really strange sport, but it's already gaining popularity right now in the 21st century: professional paintball. Perhaps Red Eclipse is really future paintball IN SPACE!!!

In universe examples: "Death" isn't real death. It's simply a short range teleportation while the battlesuit temporarily oeverrides your nervous system so that way you "ragdoll" realistically for a moment until you are teleported out of the arena for a few seconds. You then stand back up and are teleported back in at the nearest "respawn" point. Also, the blood, gore, and pretty lights are all visual effects that are computed and overlaid onto the video in real time using quantum computing (It's all the rage these days isn't it?). Did I mention that all of the guns are also frequently teleported in and out of the arena, along with ammo? That's why a gun never respawns until the person drops it, also why you have infinite clips, and also why you can carry several weapons at once without having a single holster. (Hey that makes me think some more: could the particle effects used while respawning be used on weapons when they are pulled out? Could make holstering/unholstering way cooler without having to add new animations or models.)

If I ever make my own campaign or time trial maps this is how I'm going to theme them now. I might even include a custom soundpack for the announcer, just for the lolz.

edit: Also, this idea meshes well with almost all edit3: gameplay ideas previously mentioned in the thread, e.g. favorito's node conquest mode idea.

[inpersona64]

Red Eclipse is actually an augmented reality sport that is very popular in the distant future that has very flexible rules. A multiplayer match isn't just a multiplayer match ,i'ts a multiplayer match. People shout at their TV screens edit2: holo-projectors, skip work to watch games live, wear their favorite team colors everywhere they go, etc. ...sounds weird, right? WRONG! People already do it now, except they shout at different people playing different games. This way, there is also no need for a campaign storyline either, because there is no story. It's really a spectacle, some of the best players in the solar system beating down as many non-sentient robots as money can buy. Shooting each other sounds like a really strange sport, but it's already gaining popularity right now in the 21st century: professional paintball. Perhaps Red Eclipse is really future paintball IN SPACE!!!

The way SpecTV floats around, I think this would be a viable "story" for this game. To be honest, this game is seeming more like a sport anyways since we added the Multi mutator as well as servers dedicated to Basket Bomber-Ball. Doesn't sound weird at all. And if I were to rock a team, it would be team Omega (red), although I liked the name 'Beta' better from Blood Frontier. But doesn't matter, Red is awesome

Back on topic though, if a campaign would be written with this story in mind, it would end up mostly as Survivor mode anyway. And the idea about adding some spectator voices doesn't sound bad either

Edit: Had to edit this to throw this little bit in there; this story reminds me of Ratchet: Deadlocked (a PS2 game) which was different from all the other Ratchet and Clank games because it was arena styled. All battles were fought in arenas and there were cameras floating around from above, similar to SpecTV

[wowie]

Actually my inspiration for this idea came from thinking about the new competitive iGib basket bomberball phenomenon.
That mut/mode combo basically turns Red E into basketball combined with football and a stockpile of "pew-pew" laser guns stuck into a blender that is then cranked up to 11....
....Then the blender explodes if you hold it for too long while pouring drinks.

Also, this makes me think of some more ideas. Something that would be cool would be dedicated "spectator only" slots in games.
---There is a limited amount of spectator only slots decided by the server host, and in the rare event of bandwidth becoming full,
---"live" player connections take priority. Also, A few password protected "Announcer" slots that can highlight objects, locations, and players for spectators only,
---and spectators+announcers get their own chat chat channel similar to teams getting their own chat channel... unless the server host sets it differently.
---(There's nothing like getting your position getting called out repeatedly by your own anti-fan. )

Sigma for the win! (with independent free for all participants coming in at a close second on my favorites list)

[qreeves]

Who says there is actually a biological life-form underneath that armour? :P

[wowie]

I guess flesh and blood is not required if you add it as VFX in realtime. So the "bots" are robots... which opens up a whole new can of worms. Do they have a purpose outside of the arena? Are the arenas completely digitally generated then since there is no need to have a physical space to play in because the bots would be able interface directly with a simulation? (why didn't I think of that before, it's how I themed my first map ) When does Red Eclipse take place (I'm assuming the future but how far)?

[wowie]

<posting via mobile device again excuse the double post>
If battlegrounds are simulated, do the bots exist outside the simulation? Are bots sentient or is it merely complex algorithms that wouldn't do anything at all if placed in a non-shooter environment? I know this is a lot of questions but now my curiosity is getting the better of me. Curiosity killed the cat, sure, but the cat probably had a much more interesting life because of it.

[qreeves]

Ah that's the genius of it, there is no publicised story line or concept. The story lies in the imagination of every player that plays it, to everyone it is something different.

[wowie]

The unique story is there is no story. Hmm... Philosophers. Get. Over. Here. Now.... lol? Philosophers?
Makes me want to start a "what's your story" thread. Everyone tells their version of what they think Red Eclipse is.
Very tricky move there. Meh. Guess the story doesn't mean much anyway as long as the gameplay is fun. Still, I wonder.
To everyone it has the best story the player can imagine... bah now I'm off topic because I'm thinking of the early days of minecraft...
...Be back later I have to go get another dose of minecrack. *leaves* *returns many moons later* Okay I'm back. What was the topic again?

I've changed my mind, I don't need an explicit narrative, not for Red Eclipse.
The Red Eclipse slogan: Anything is possible. ...I get it now!

----------And now back to your regularly scheduled topic.----------

Campaign, survival, or mashup. I don't care which just as long as it's awesome. (Although I still wouldn't mind that node conquest mode being added. )

edit: Now that I look back on this, I feel like an idiot. This post was all fluff and no substance.... like cotton candy?
edit2: now that I look at it, this is the 42nd post in this thread... coincidence? I think not...

[inpersona64]

I personally have never thought of a story for Red Eclipse. I've always thought that it was like 2 (or 4 if you include Multi) sides that just fight to the death. Wowie's story has a pretty good base, which is why I completely agree with it (if a campaign or campaign-like survival mode were created). But I do like that everyone thinks of some story when it comes to RE. I mean I guess most of the stories are derived from maps (planets or just different terrains of the same map?) and some from gameplay mechanics (parkour and jet boots = the future of humans?). But I guess what it boils down to is that the game wasn't trying to go for a story. Just good gameplay, which it has succeeded

[Takeawayandshine]

Since RE is a multiplayer game, i think normal singleplayer campaign mode doesnt make sense. It may be left4dead style, with a team moving through a levels and surviving random npc mob attacks. Another gamemode may take place in a small location with players surviving waves of mobs, and also it more easy to implement. To make game more interesting different types of mobs should be designed

[Jamestonjes]

I vote campaign my reason is that if It doesn't have replayabilty its OK and here's why...

Think about it most of the maps are community made right? So couldn't anyone therefore make there own campaign?

[Ulukai]

I vote campaign my reason is that if It doesn't have replayabilty its OK and here's why...

Think about it most of the maps are community made right? So couldn't anyone therefore make there own campaign?

Could you?

Look at it that way: making a decent MP map takes a couple of weeks. Making a decent SP map would probably take even longer and maybe there is scripting involved as well to make it a bit challenging and unique. If you then play through it in 10 minutes and it has no replayability, why would anyone do the effort? If you want this kind of gameplay, there probably are much better alternatves than RE out there.

[Jamestonjes]

Well if any one needed help they could edit online

A decent l mp map could be designed in about 1week excluding texturing and entitys IMO (I draw top down versions at school during the week and edit on weekends)but yeah that's just the general design it doesn't always work out as well as it seems on paper and needs to be edited to suit the game more.

I understand what you mean about SP levels as that would be a lot of work I'm sure but it'd be well worth the effort but I'm not that fussed either way I still have tons of games to finish and I don't know if very many people even like my current map(excluding people I edited it with)