3D pixel style coop action RPG (IRON FIST?)

3D pixel style coop action RPG (IRON FIST?)

Postby Julius » 17 Aug 2013, 13:01

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EDIT: MUCH OF THE BELOW INFO IS BRAINSTORMING ONLY AND PARTIALLY OUTDATED BY NOW!
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[Split from here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4070 ]

Edit: surt drafted a nice potential title name:
title_name_drawsurt.png
by surt



Ok, maybe this is a bit early to ask for support, but I have quite intensively looking into making such a 3D RPG FOSS game in the last 8 weeks or so.
The idea is to use a quite unique art-style that resembles a 2D pixel art to some extend, so that:

[*]1. A lot of the existing 2D RPG UI graphic stuff can be used (see OGA for that, GUI, spell icons, equipment icons etc.)
[*]2. The amount of character variations needed can be much easier and quicker produced (more on that later)
[*]3. The game has a unique style that doesn't "age", e.g. a problem many FOSS games have

Here is a reference I found with would be roughly the level style I am aiming for:
tumblr_mr9pm3dBxx1rd0fz3o1_r1_1280.jpg


But maybe a bit less pixelish. As a start I would probably convert these cc-by licensed 2D tilesets (http://www.lostgarden.com/2006/07/more- ... phics.html ) into 3D textures, which shouldn't be too hard as they are not real pixel graphic and relative high resolution. Using 2D filters (and maybe hand drawn hight-maps) all of these would get normal and displacement maps, thus having a 2D pixel look with full dynamic lightning support. There are several examples of 2D games that use normal-maps to a great effect, and I think the result would look pretty sweet.

For characters the aim is to go for a 2d/3d hybrid, with the rough aim to look like something similar to this 2D graphics:
2013050205pixelart.gif
2013050205pixelart.gif (14.38 KiB) Viewed 4215 times

2013020113pixelart.gif
2013020113pixelart.gif (17.03 KiB) Viewed 4215 times


Technically the idea is to break up the meshes into three parts (quite similar to how it is done in Qauake3 md3s):
[*] A full 3D head mesh and follows mouse-movement (not animated)
[*] 2D arms pictures in 3D space with limited texture animation that are effected by mouse input
[*] "Directional sprite" like 2D body with texture animations (pre-rendered?)
[*]Animated tags for attaching weapons and other props like back-packs and shields in runtime

Edit: The latest idea is to make it even more 2d/3d hybrid, by making body armor, helmet etc in 3D (with a pixelated texture) and all animated parts directional sprites

The result would be that one pseudo mesh could be used for all characters and enemies, with just swapping out textures, and the overall creation time would be much quicker as there is no need to worry about polycounts, proper rigging, animations etc. Just wip up what ever mesh, pose it in a few walk cycle animation poses (4-5 should be sufficient), render it out with something like this https://github.com/BinaryPeak/blender-texture-atlas (and maybe that new Freestyle renderer) and include the new texture in the shader material of the character.
Thus overall the workflow of creating new characters or armor variations would be MUCH quicker, and the result should look pretty much like fully animated 2D pixel graphics in 3D space (especially if you factor in normal and displacement map use).

I have also identified the best engine to use for this, but I have hit some barriers there which probably would need the commitment from a experienced coder (anyone?). Basically what I would like to use is a combination of qfusion (of Warsow fame: https://github.com/viciious/qfusion ) and ya3dag (http://www.ya3dag.de/ & http://www.moddb.com/mods/r-reinhard/do ... ource-code ).
These two engines are technically really close (both are based on Quake2 and ya3dag borrowed some code from qfusion in the past), but the problem is that the qfusion creator has no interest in implementing RPG features, and the ya3dag developer is somewhat unresponsive and doesn't have much time to develop new features.

Pro and cons of both engines:
ya3dag:
[*] + has pretty much all the RPG like features already
[*] + Awesome in game level and terrain editor
[*] + Cool stuff like bullet physics
[*] - only limited script support (is planned, likely copying the qfusion code, but developer working only very slowly on it)
[*] - GUI system really outdated
[*] - Engine has some performance problems
[*] - Only windows (but according to the developer there is no mayor obstacle why the code shouldn't compile on Linux too)

qfusion:
[*] + Really fast with and very modern OpenGL2.0 ES renderer and awesome all GPU run q3 like shader system
[*] + Very nice online multiplayer stats and login system (matchmakeing etc. planned)
[*] + Fully scriptable (angelscript) with awesome librocket based GUI system
[*] + Well documented and easy to use asset creation system (.iqm, Quake3 maps)
[*] + Fully multiplatform (win, mac, lin), production ready and proven, additional platforms like Android should be easy to do
[*] - Developer not interested in adding features outside of the FPS genre

So the idea would be basically to take qfusion (as it is the more advanced of the two engines) and port the RPG and in-game level/terrain editor stuff from ya3dag over into it. I hope that given the similarities of the engines, that shouldn't be too difficult, but as I am really not a C programmer, I can't do it myself (I could help out with gameplay script later on though).
Edit: Seems like we will do it the other way around... take ya3dag for now and see if stuff from qfusion (and AlienArena) can be ported later.

I think given all the code available and the awesome amount of 2D art for RPGs on OGA, at least 50% of the work is already done! But it would need a skilled coder to take the lead and make this thing a reality (and I would be happy to lead the art department side of things).

Ah, last but not least: My idea for game-play would be to start with a mission based coop multiplayer, kind of like Left4Dead but obviously with RPG elements. Players could have a permanent advancing online character (or a fast leveling system could be used, so that people start out new for every campaign) and additional missions could be largely contributed by the community (given the easy to use level editor).
In addition I would really like to add a Savage2 like multiplayer option, but with a toned down RTS element (keeping only the map control elements and expanding it to be a bit towerdefense like). This should be probably easy to do once you have the base RPG game, but well... that would be rather the longer term plans ;)

Tell me what you think! And hopefully we can find a quake engine experienced C coder that would like to make this a reality!
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Re: Why is there no 1st or 3rd person classic FOSS RPG?

Postby surt » 19 Aug 2013, 09:34

I could probably dig up the motivation to do some (proper low) low poly stuff for a single-player focused (multiplayer is of zero interest) arcadey action-rpg type thing.
I've been meaning to do some 3d gauntlety stuff forever.
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Re: Why is there no 1st or 3rd person classic FOSS RPG?

Postby Julius » 19 Aug 2013, 09:55

surt wrote:I could probably dig up the motivation to do some (proper low) low poly stuff for a single-player focused (multiplayer is of zero interest) arcadey action-rpg type thing.
I've been meaning to do some 3d gauntlety stuff forever.


Ok your are in the team! Getting such an awesome pixel artist on board is a dream for the project I am proposing ;)

My suggestion would be to create a sort of coop-campaign game, e.g. a bit like Left4Dead so that you have individual relatively short but multi level campaigns that can be played as single player or cooperatively with up to 4 players. I hope that still falls in your definition of "single-player focused" :)

What is your take on creating a sort of 2.5D pixelish character models for a 3rd person view-point which I am proposing above? I am still not 100% sure if that's the best way to go and it needs a few smaller code changes, thus it's a bit difficult to test.

But I just got an reply from the author of ya3dag again, and it seems he is moving towards supporting my idea (I also pointed him to this thread). So please have a look at the current state of that project (currently Windows only) to get a better idea what is already there (please look beyond the current "placeholder" in-game and GUI graphics). I think it should be a quite solid base for a 3rd person gauntlety style RPG.
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Re: Why is there no 1st or 3rd person classic FOSS RPG?

Postby surt » 19 Aug 2013, 10:16

Julius wrote:What is your take on creating a sort of 2.5D pixelish character models for a 3rd person view-point which I am proposing above? I am still not 100% sure if that's the best way to go and it needs a few smaller code changes, thus it's a bit difficult to test.
I reckon it'd be easier to go full mesh for characters, but do most of detailing in texture in preference to geometry, so kind of half-ways between the two. Sprites for items should be cool.
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Re: Why is there no 1st or 3rd person classic FOSS RPG?

Postby Julius » 19 Aug 2013, 11:19

One of the things I am hoping to gain by going 2.5D is that very limited animations (4-5 frames for walking forward for example) becomes good looking/believable, which is not working at all with real 3D meshes. Making good looking animations for a 3rd person game is IMHO the main obstacle we will face (especially for melee combat).

Otherwise I would agree that a mostly texture driven 3D model would be the preferred way to go.
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Re: Why is there no 1st or 3rd person classic FOSS RPG?

Postby Julius » 19 Aug 2013, 12:55

If we decide tp go for full 3D character instead, a style like this might work well:
Edit: see attachement (not really relevant as a style anymore I think)

(Notice how one could probably make a "base-guy" and attach jaws, hats, helmets etc via tags in game instead of modeling individual characters)

Edit: for reference: Those are actually quite similar to these:
http://opengameart.org/content/little-box-knight
http://opengameart.org/content/little-b ... le-version (done by me yay)
http://opengameart.org/content/little-knight-animation

But IMHO I would prefer a less minecrafty style akin to the 2D characters posted earlier.

Edit2: or maybe something more like this: http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i101/ ... l-comp.jpg
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Re: 3D pixel style coop action RPG

Postby Julius » 20 Aug 2013, 21:39

Trying to make ya3dag to compile under Linux (very unsuccessfully so far:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4798
(I guess I forget about cmake for now and concentrate on making a makefile based on another idTech2 engine).

I also got another response from Robert, the coder behind the ya3dag engine, and he thinks my sprite character idea is very feasible to implement on top of the already frame-based md3 system, which sounds pretty much perfect to me. He hopes to implement it until October (he has some holidays in between) so that we can start testing it out.

I think this could turn out to be a pretty awesome FOSS game, as the ya3dag already has a lot of nice features (better default keybinds and a option to control the menus with a mouse will be in the next version too btw. He is also looking into implementing .iqm and porting the really nice librocket menu gui from qfusion).

Edit: Besides the ingame level-editor ya3dag also uses the little known Qoole99 quake level editor, in a modified version to allow for making Bullet physics objects and underground levels etc (I think). Qoole is also available under the GPL and the modified version is part of the ya3dag source tree. However the original version (see here: http://www.volved.com/qsr/ ) only runs on Windows. There has been an porting effort (see here: http://code.google.com/p/wxqoole/ ) so at some point this probably needs to be brought up to the ya3dag level and used instead for true multiplatform editing.

Edit2:
@surt what would you like to do first? I will test the sprite character idea for sure, but if you come up with cool full 3D character templates I am sure that would be awesome too.
Alternatively you could maybe start making some low-poly 3D maps-models etc that kinda fit to the lost garden tile-set I linked above? But it is really up to you :)

Aaand edit3:
Start of a OGA collection of potentially used pixel art:
http://opengameart.org/content/base-pix ... xelish-rpg
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Re: 3D pixel style coop action RPG

Postby MCMic » 20 Aug 2013, 22:29

Hum, what would you think of using FLARE?
Maybe I'm missing something obvious there, but it seems to me it's close to what you want to do : an RPG using pre-rendered 3D art. Thought you seem to have changed your mind about the pre-rendered part, in which case FLARE is a no-go.

And what about full 3D things like scourge or egoboo?
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Re: 3D pixel style coop action RPG

Postby Julius » 20 Aug 2013, 22:34

It will be full 3D (no fixed camera either, over the shoulder kind of 3rd person viewpoint), but the idea is to use pre-rendered character sprites kind of like it was done in Duke3D oder Doom, but of course much more advanced.
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Re: 3D pixel style coop action RPG

Postby Julius » 20 Aug 2013, 22:47

For reference:
Maybe a starting point for a pixelized prerendering: http://www.blendswap.com/blends/view/65505

And an older discussion about 2D sprites in an 3D environment:
http://wayofthepixel.net/index.php?topic=14492.0

Another potential character style:
http://www.blendswap.com/blends/view/67466
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Re: 3D pixel style coop action RPG

Postby Julius » 21 Aug 2013, 08:37

Some design brainstorm:

Desired design principles:
1. Smart use of tech, e.g. make things as simple as possible to create/edit without compromising on art quality too much (e.g. not like Minecraft)
- Low entry barrier for content contributors! In-game editor, tutorials available, multiplatform tool-chain as far as possible, not too high skill requiring art
2. JUICE ( http://freegamer.blogspot.com/2012/05/d ... -game.html )
- The pixel style should not look old, but rather a deliberate design choice. Great sounds, music, special effects (particles, magic...) etc. are top priority
- Innovative use of tech for neat effects, for example: when switching to the mouse controlled menus (kinda like it is done in Arx Fatalis) instead of just offering a mouse-pointer why not make it an glowing torch or magic-wand that lights up the surroundings of the player according to mouse movement and all the inventory/GUI elements also come with a normal-map applied thus that when you move the glowing mouse-pointer over/near them they are also dynamically effected by the light.
3. Typical fantasy game tropes can be used for the fun of it. References to Gauntlet or other well known fantasy games (including Final Fantasy or Dungeons & Dragons) are welcome but must to be not in violation of copyright!

Player movement, melee combat, spell casting etc.:
1. For now I propose to closely follow the very well made system found in Savage2 ( http://www.savage2.com/ free to download), which the exception that for long range weapons no 1st person view is used, but rather a zoomed in over the shoulder 3rd person view.
- Especially the dodge, melee attack-chain and block input options are great. Default keyboard layout also allows for easy reach of number keys to cast spells or activate special abilities
- the so called "snap-cast" is a great way to apply abilities or spells to NPCs or team-mates (it's a kind of auto-aim system for certain spells).

Process of creating normal-mapped pixelart:
1. The still not fully tested idea is to take the pixel art in it's original form (with a perspective correction stretch in case of some of the tile art) and slightly simplifiy and greyscale it. Then the resolution is quadrupeled (32x32 -> 64x64) and details smoothed out to create a greyscale depth-map. This depth map is then used to create a normal-map via the GIMP filter.
- it remains to be seen how a higher resolution normal-map (and thus the light effects) will effect the look of the pixelish diffuse map. I will test that soon.
2. For pre-rendered character art a similar process is used, with the screen-space depth-map rendered directly from the mesh (if rendering a screen-space normal-map directly is possible also, that would be good too).
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Re: 3D pixel style coop action RPG

Postby surt » 25 Aug 2013, 03:10

Roughed out basic male and female meshes.
gauntleper.jpg
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[The extension blend has been deactivated and can no longer be displayed.]

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Re: 3D pixel style coop action RPG

Postby Julius » 25 Aug 2013, 10:16

That looks like an awesome start! I think we should aim for 4 different character classes: warrior (knight or barbarian?), mage (summoner?), hunter (thief?) and priest (monk?).
I am definitely looking forward to what you come up with. Robert from ya3dag said that he is planning to include .iqm skeletal animation support (like used in Cube2, Xonotic etc.), so that is what you can aim for.

While we are on updates:
Looks like ya3dag will be the engine of choice, as the original creator seems quite interested in supporting this idea (besides the fact that it is really the closest to what we want already).
I had a closer look at what is there already, and I have to say that I am quite impressed by the level of editing documentation for ya3dag (but we should transfer that to a wiki) and the ease of making modifications. Basically everything is text-file driven (including the HUD, which is thus very easy to modify) and there is a very extensive system to script single-player levels, NPC behavior and other in game stuff.
There is also already a nice system in place for some in-game item crafting (using recepies) and a in game mission system that allows you to take on tasks and even easily travel to new levels all inside the game. The in game level editor, and especially the terrain editing and texturing tools (which include cliff and texture overlay support) are also very convenient to use.

Robert also said that his plans until October are to finish the easy to use particle system he is currently working on, then look into Linux support (is probably easy to do) and last but not least experiment with technical implementation of the sprite character idea of mine.

For me I guess I will start setting up the ya3dag mod framework and start converting some of the GUI graphics into a nice HUD for the game. As I said before I will also start creating level textures out of some of the pixel art tiles linked above, and think of a clever way to do 3D vegetation (grass, trees etc.) that stays true to the overall pixel style. I also have a good idea for creating the in-game loot/items which I will try out.
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Re: 3D pixel style coop action RPG

Postby Evropi » 25 Aug 2013, 11:15

That's really nice work surt! Going for a tribal sort of theme? All I can think now is 'tiki'...

Also, your avatar seems to be strangely fitting to your art style. :D
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Re: 3D pixel style coop action RPG

Postby Julius » 28 Aug 2013, 22:09

@ Surt: would it be possible to make more concept art like this or the simpler 3 color versions (taken from your CC0 scraps post on OGA)?
bingin.png
cc0 done by surt


I have started to make a nice set of goblin warriors out of this and the heads etc you posted, and I think besides nice concept art for creating models, this could even be morphed onto a 3D mesh for rendering out the 3D directions sprites which I have in mind. A set of insect warriors could be probably made out of those you shared already too.

You seem to be quite quick in making these, so how about making a backside for the goblin above, and some heroes in a similar style as concepts for the player-models? But anything would be cool (head and body separated and on transparent background please).A skeleton body that goes with that one head you shared would be useful too!
Edit: Ahh overlooked the one you did already:
sektoln.png
CC0 by surt

Also great, a back-side would be the icing on the cake ;)

Keep up the awesome work!

Edit:
P.S.: The GUI graphics set that comes with the lost garden set fits really well to the ya3dag HUD system it seems, and I have also collected (on OGA) a nice set of 64x64 weapons sprites and a lot of useful 32x32 sprites for potions, rings, spells and crafting items etc. Not too happy with the shields and armor that is available on OGA, but at least for a start it can be used as placeholders. This is really shaping up nicely I think.
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Re: 3D pixel style coop action RPG

Postby Bertram » 28 Aug 2013, 22:47

Hi :)

I just wanted to say that I fully support this project and really hope something will come out of it...

Best regards,
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Re: 3D pixel style coop action RPG

Postby Julius » 29 Aug 2013, 17:39

Thanks, feel free to contribute ;)

Funny story... I was just yesterday thinking: "hmm a pixel-art scaler plugin for GIMP like found in emulators, would be really nice", and today I see this on OGA:
http://opengameart.org/forumtopic/pixel ... x-for-gimp

Gives really nice results too :D
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Re: 3D pixel style coop action RPG

Postby surt » 30 Aug 2013, 13:52

Julius: should be able to scribble out a few.

Scribbled a couple rough character ideas:
morkand.png
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Re: 3D pixel style coop action RPG

Postby Julius » 30 Aug 2013, 14:35

A lich in the same style as the skeleton would be awesome!

About the player models and the title name... hmm keep your creative juices flowing, but the name sounds a bit too much like a martial arts movie and the characters (while cool ideas in general) could be maybe a bit more traditional fantasy style (and coats and whips are difficult to do ;) ).
Hmm, but the design of the title name is cool, so maybe we go with that anyways. It's just a bit early to really decide on that I guess.
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Re: 3D pixel style coop action RPG

Postby surt » 30 Aug 2013, 15:11

What's more traditional for PC options than cleric, mage, warrior, thief?
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Re: 3D pixel style coop action RPG

Postby Julius » 30 Aug 2013, 16:29

surt wrote:What's more traditional for PC options than cleric, mage, warrior, thief?


Well those are traditional archetypes, but the ones you drew are only somewhat related to what typically comes to mind when thinking of these.
But I don't want to stop your creativity, just come up with want you think is cool, and we will find a way to get it in the game.

Edit: but please keep those overall proportions as with the goblin and the skeleton posted above, e.g. large arms and big head.

Edit2: Added your logo to the OP :D
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Re: 3D pixel style coop action RPG (IRON FIST?)

Postby Evropi » 30 Aug 2013, 18:16

Are you sure you want to use Iron Fist as the title? :P

I suggest something that is very cool-sounding, short and memorable (like Iron Fist), but also unique and easily googleable. It should be on the top of a search engine's results.

What about... say, Tiki Adventure or Tiki Nightmare? I am really glad to see this art style getting more exposure, by the way.
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Re: 3D pixel style coop action RPG (IRON FIST?)

Postby Julius » 30 Aug 2013, 18:34

Heh, I knew that sounded familiar... however google only turned up some 1970ties comic book. Well that cube2 game is also quite obscure ;)
But I will leave it as it is for now... I don't even think we need a name currently.
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Re: 3D pixel style coop action RPG (IRON FIST?)

Postby surt » 31 Aug 2013, 09:29

Some undeads:
goonthenletus.png


That cube engine game doesn't look to have anything to do with Gauntlet (metal glove, iron-bound fist). I've been using "Iron Fist" for my Gauntlety stuff since at least 2006.

Julius, where'd that CC0 come from?
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Re: 3D pixel style coop action RPG (IRON FIST?)

Postby Julius » 31 Aug 2013, 13:06

Ah sorry, I thought you had posted it in the CC0scraps post too. I removed it of course.

Nice work on the undead set! I especially like the wrath as it is a nice Blood1 reference ;)
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