What there is to do & SumWars/LoS

Re: What there is to do & merging with SumWars?

Postby Danimal » 12 Dec 2012, 21:50

Ok, but you know Svend opinion is needed here and i doubt hes going to change anything at all, since he did a good part of the code (if he shows up again sme day)
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Re: What there is to do & merging with SumWars?

Postby paul424 » 12 Dec 2012, 22:31

I just tried to be ironic,

because Lisp of Suna uses the same engine as ours , that is I mean doing that would be a fool's job.
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Re: What there is to do & merging with SumWars?

Postby Skorpio » 12 Dec 2012, 23:36

So is anybody else able to compile a new OD version for windows? I really need a new version! :(

We should probably take a look at Lips of Suna even if it's only to get a new perspective for the terrain system. How does it work? Does it use voxels?
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Re: What there is to do & merging with SumWars?

Postby Julius » 13 Dec 2012, 10:15

Well, since OGRE3D is really only the graphics engine, I guess porting over code to LoS is probably going to be a re-write for the most part. Generally I am of course also in favor of looking at LoS for combining efforts, but by outwards appearances I assumed it would be easier to merge SumWars and OD then to try something with the LoS engine as that is really a completely different game (no 2.5D top-down levels with dungeon tiles).
However feature wise,the LoS engine is sure impressive.

@Skorpio: get Linux :p The new Mint Linux ( http://linuxmint.com/ ) release is just out, and should be easily understandable for Windows users. Just install it along side your Windows partition.
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Re: What there is to do & merging with SumWars?

Postby TheAncientGoat » 13 Dec 2012, 13:54

Yep, porting to Lips would mean a re-write, using Lua to script interaction as well as game data but like I said, a lot of existing features have already been implemented. Also, LoS doesn't use CEGUI, and it's GUI system (no offense nekotaku) is a bit lacking.

A list of features that have already been implemented:

Graphics: Shadows, bump/spec/normal mapping, animated models, custom meshes for unique creatures, mesh importing via Blender, randomly generated voxel blocks improving appearance. A large library of imported meshes and monsters already exist that can be re-used. There is also a basic mini-map system, but it needs a lot of work

Ui: There is currently a relatively adaptable list based UI system, but it isn't very attractive or flexible appearance wise.

Editor: Place and move blocks, meshes/objects, traps, creatures similar to how Sauerbraten works. Saved areas can dynamically be loaded into other areas, or generated on a map, for example, rooms can be made in an editor, and spawned into the voxel map by clicking.

Gameplay: Map is made up of voxel blocks. Blocks are minable with different hardnesses, there are different materials to mine, as well as water & lava. There is a spell system that can accommodate DK like spells. Creatures currently have wandering AI. Creatures can be controlled in first or third person. There are projectile, spell and melee combat systems. Creatures can use weapons, armor and items. A dialog and quest system also exists, which can be used for a campaign. The system also has built-in multiplayer that would accommodate competitive matches. There is a statistics system that determines creatures' combat performance, that can be modified to handle DK like gameplay. Bullet Physics determines combat actions and movement. Objects can be interacted with, and are scriptable, allowing for things like doors and traps to be created.

Things that would need to be implemented:

Graphically: Pretty much nothing, just models re-imported into the LoS format, and maybe animations fixed.

UI: A lot of work would need to be done, either implementing CeGUI in LoS (very hard) or maybe rolling back to LoS' previous, SumWars based UI and implementing a DK like UI from there. The editor UI could also work for the time being, but isn't really attractive in a game context.

Editor and gameplay would be merged, somewhat.

Gameplay:
AI system would need to be implemented where creatures have jobs, needs, requirements, attributes etc (hard), and all the creatures would need to be scripted using this system.
AI pathfinding would need to be drastically improved (hard)
AI would need to gather jobs based on distance to available jobs that they can do (easy). A jobs tracking system would need to be implemented (medium).
The block selection system would need to be modified to add a mining job for imps (easy). The item placement system would need to be modified to add jobs to create items (medium), as well as add item placement jobs for imps (easy).
A room system would need to be implemented based on the existing patterns system that stores a list of possible rooms, their contents, and generates the contents on a selected area (medium) as well as list their presence per dungeon in order to attract creatures (easy).
The creature alignment system would need to be modified to be based on teams, per player (easy).
Creatures need to be pick-upable and re-placed anywhere (easy).
The spell system needs to be split into player spells and creature spells, as well as have researchable spells, and new DK spells need to be implemented (medium).
A resource system would need to be implemented to keep track of stored resources, room, item and spell cost (medium).
Traps would need to get scripted effects, via spells (easy)
Missions/quests etc would also need to be implemented (hard)

Regarding the issue of 2.5d tile-based vs fully 3d as in LoS; all of the games are actually 3d, it's just a camera orientation (also, DK had fully 3d creature possession, which LoS would be perfect for).

Tiles are nice, but the voxel + physical entities system allows for arguably easier and faster creation of room presets, you just write a definition of what items needs to be placed in a room, and the system can generate it programatically, instead of having to model each possible combination. LoS is also pretty flexible, there wouldn't be any problem using tiles either, just export it as a mesh and you're fine to go.

A couple more things I thought would be cool that the LoS system would allow:

Custom armor/items for creatures: all creatures could have their own personality, as well as equipment that can be researched/upgraded or found, similar to how Dwarf Fortress and Majesty works.
Multi-level dungeons: would require selective layer based viewing to be implemented, but otherwise wouldn't be too hard to implement.
Building as well as mining: Because the system is voxel based, workers can build walls as well as destroy them. Would be very useful if one does an above ground level as well.
Physics based traps: talked about this earlier, but to expand: rolling stone balls, pit traps, pendulum slicers etc would be possible.
Improved firstperson/possession mode: The player could play as a single creature, and explore the world, similar to how Dwarf Fortress' Adventure mode works.
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Re: What there is to do & merging with SumWars?

Postby Julius » 13 Dec 2012, 19:35

Hmm, nice that you show so much enthusiasm for using the LoS engine :) Maybe you would be willing to come up with a DK like prototype? You mentioned you already have a base building script? If we thus get a skilled developer on board that knows the in and outs of the LoS engine, I am all for it.
But I am skeptical towards promoting it, given the lack of a suitable candidate for a partial rewrite other than you ;)
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Re: What there is to do & merging with SumWars?

Postby TheAncientGoat » 13 Dec 2012, 20:57

Well, I'm slightly time limited ATM, and you're right with there not really being any other developer support, the Lips lead is very busy at the moment as well. Then again, the same could be said of Summoning Wars, as I understand the situation.

The thing is, I feel Lips is very easy to modify: I am not a very good programmer and picked up scripting quests and things rather quickly. The table based lua script design is very easy to follow and mimic to achieve goals, as compared to more complicated C/C++ based development. No need for compilation and debugging related to exactly what you where coding instead of figuring out build errors give it a shallow learning curve.

That being said, I /could/ deliver a prototype, with a limited amount of features, but no promise on time-span
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Re: What there is to do & merging with SumWars?

Postby Skorpio » 14 Dec 2012, 01:31

The feature list of Lips of Suna looks very impressive. What are the objections of the programmers to a switch?
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Re: What there is to do & merging with SumWars?

Postby Skorpio » 15 Dec 2012, 09:22

Actually, now that I've reread the list, it doesn't look that impressive anymore. I guess I was too tired and mixed up the stuff that needs work with the rest. :) The things in LoS which would be very interesting are the voxel terrain and possible layered dungeons, possession of creatures and physics based traps. Also, LoS has already a functional combat system and spells.
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Re: What there is to do & merging with SumWars?

Postby MCMic » 15 Dec 2012, 13:13

About using LoS engine: Why not?

I mean, it seems coders are not very happy with the current OD code base anyway (paul and oln are talking about huge cleanups to do) and the lua scripting aspect seems interesting.
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Re: What there is to do & merging with SumWars?

Postby Evropi » 15 Dec 2012, 16:09

This is a terrible idea. The end result would be like an aborted baby on the kerbside, abandoned, an abomination to the eye with little more than a few moments of life.

These are two clearly different games. The LoS engine is a very modern game engine and has low-poly models with very advanced shaders (like the Call of Duty engine and many other modern game engine) that is very much tailor-made for the game. You'd be looking at a massive amount of work otherwise, and it would split the communities of both.

And besides, they are two completely different games. LoS is a lot less about the combat & RPG aspect. Were this merger to succeed, the codebases would differ enormously so you would no longer have the benefits of cross-project development. LoS is also very much incomplete, especially in the control area (it just doesn't feel very responsive) which is key to creating a great action RPG. They have different aims, too.

All these benefits you speak of will be lost almost immediately. By doing this, you will kill at least one of the two games. Maybe otherwise Summoning Wars can live on, and it is a mighty impressive project. Would be a shame if it were to disappear, don't you think?
You just wasted 3 seconds of your life reading this.
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Re: What there is to do & merging with SumWars?

Postby TheAncientGoat » 15 Dec 2012, 16:40

I wouldn't really recommend Summoning Wars merging with Lips of Suna either; they have a nice engine that achieves most of its targets already, it mainly lacks content (and maybe a bit of polish on the existing content) at the moment.

Julius' idea of merging Sumwars and OD isn't bad per-se; but it would really be re-writing OD to use the Summoning Wars formats and game engine in order to offer Summoning Wars an editor (which I'm not totally sure how it would work). It would be a lot of work in any case. The main issue to me is that Sumwars isn't written with dynamism in terms of terrain, building etc. in mind, which OD needs.

The Lips-OD system wouldn't be a merger either, although I guess there will be a lot of code-sharing as well. Lips is dynamic, has a lot of "building", generation, etc frameworks implemented, which OD can make use of. Lips doesn't really have a community either, so there isn't much of a risk killing it :P

Both are scripted in Lua, so it shouldn't be too hard to swap on the scripting side (after having a look at them, both have pretty similar structures, except for Summoning Wars wrapping a lot of "data" scripts in xml, whereas Lips just uses Lua tables)
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Re: What there is to do & merging with SumWars?

Postby charlie » 16 Dec 2012, 08:02

Evropi {l Wrote}:This is a terrible idea. The end result would be like an aborted baby on the kerbside, abandoned, an abomination to the eye with little more than a few moments of life.

These are two clearly different games. The LoS engine is a very modern game engine and has low-poly models with very advanced shaders (like the Call of Duty engine and many other modern game engine) that is very much tailor-made for the game. You'd be looking at a massive amount of work otherwise, and it would split the communities of both.

And besides, they are two completely different games. LoS is a lot less about the combat & RPG aspect. Were this merger to succeed, the codebases would differ enormously so you would no longer have the benefits of cross-project development. LoS is also very much incomplete, especially in the control area (it just doesn't feel very responsive) which is key to creating a great action RPG. They have different aims, too.

All these benefits you speak of will be lost almost immediately. By doing this, you will kill at least one of the two games. Maybe otherwise Summoning Wars can live on, and it is a mighty impressive project. Would be a shame if it were to disappear, don't you think?

I think this might be overly pessimistic. Let's see how TAG's LoS prototype turns out. LoS is not just one big unflexible codebase, but a scriptable engine that uses Lua to implement the gameplay, so you're possibly very wrong in some regards - but the pessimism is justified and some points are right.
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Re: What there is to do & merging with SumWars?

Postby jedilamma » 16 Dec 2012, 10:06

TheAncientGoat {l Wrote}:Gameplay:
AI system would need to be implemented where creatures have jobs, needs, requirements, attributes etc (hard), and all the creatures would need to be scripted using this system.
AI pathfinding would need to be drastically improved (hard)




what kind of path finding does OD use,
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Re: What there is to do & SumWars/LoS

Postby paul424 » 16 Dec 2012, 11:28

It's classical A*.
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Re: What there is to do & merging with SumWars?

Postby oln » 16 Dec 2012, 13:46

I think the decision of what engine/codebase to use should mainly be up to whoever decides to take up the job of actually writing code, even if that should mean writing something from scratch.

I was unsure whether or not TAG meant that everything could be done using the scripting in LoS, or if one would have to touch the C code. If the latter is the case then that requires someone competent with C. Is the GUI scriptable?

I also suggested looking at the Cube2/Redeclipse engine, which seems to also have some of the features we want, but would probably still require low-level code work.

With regards to 2d/tiles vs. 3d/voxels, I would at least vote for going away from a 2d world, to not be too much of a clone of DK.
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Re: What there is to do & SumWars/LoS

Postby Julius » 16 Dec 2012, 14:19

Yeah, I 100% agree on the notion that is is really up to the person who actually writes the code to decide, however I don't think going "voxel" is a good idea. For once it would then start to look like a Minecraft clone of some sort, and also I don't think the DK gameplay mechanics translate well into a full 3D dungeon (2D stacked ones might work).
Making a somewhat polished 2.5D OpenDungeons/ARPG hybrid is in my opinion much more worthwile than experimenting with some 3D DK system. Besides that... we are much closer to the former than the latter.
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Re: What there is to do & SumWars/LoS

Postby TheAncientGoat » 16 Dec 2012, 14:57

Julius: There would be no noticable "voxelness" (not that lips or even minecraft are true voxel engines) in using the Lips engine, the destructable terrian would behave and look pretty much exactly as one would expect from a DK like game.

3D dungeons would only work as stacked 2D dungeons (which is 3D), the main thing is that it would be much easier to implement in Lips which has the back-end for that to be implemented relatively easily.

There is no 2.5D in either OpenDungeons or Sumwars, both are fully 3D, with locked perspectives.

Anyhow, the layered dungeon implementation wouldn't make sense until the "2d" system is working anyhow.

Oln: Ui is implemented in C++, with a Lua api. To change the appearance behavior extensively one would have to touch the C++ code though.

Gameplay is entirely scripted, however, there are some C and C++ algos and things for performance intensive tasks. It is quite flexible as to where you can implement features, so a person can choose if they go with Lua, C or C++.

Cube2/Redeclipse wouldn't work. Tesseract, Cube with Dynamic lighting, might work, but it would either entail scripting the game in CubeScript (quite limited), or adding a conventional language scripting layer (which Octaforge/CubeCreate/Syntensity/Plexus has been attempting to do for a couple of years), or implementing it as C++ extensions, as Redeclipse does to Cube2. Also, you would have to re-implement everything from scratch, whereas LoS and Sumwars at least have a form of RPG base.
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Re: What there is to do & SumWars/LoS

Postby Julius » 16 Dec 2012, 15:41

Sure it's isn't 2.5D in the traditional sense, but it is an essentially 2d game build with a 3D engine, so 2.5D sounds like a good description to me ;)

Otherwise... as I said in the prototype thread... I think it's cool that you are trying to implement a DK type game into LoS and I will be definitely looking forward to what you come up with. As said before... who makes it, decides it!
But personally I would rather see some work done on the exisiting SumWars or OD engine to make them work as one...
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Re: What there is to do & SumWars/LoS

Postby Skorpio » 18 Dec 2012, 15:27

After watching the Hobbit in 3D yesterday, I think Open Dungeons should be more epic. I want a game in which I can build something like the dwarven city under the mountain Erebor or Moria, then transfer it to a Matrix-like cyberspace and load my mind into it. Do you think we can realize something like that during the next 30-40 years? :D
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Re: What there is to do & SumWars/LoS

Postby charlie » 18 Dec 2012, 16:59

I was hoping for the dungeon heart to have a HAL-like capability, and that you speak in to your microphone and instruct it to design your creatures.

"I want big horns, HAL."

"I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that."

Actually should be rather simple.
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Re: What there is to do & SumWars/LoS

Postby Dratz-_C » 22 Dec 2012, 01:18

Skorpio,
I saw with my parents "The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey" in 2D on the 16th. My father and I liked it (we read The Hobbit when I was 5) but my mother felt there was too much violence for her taste in the film. I think more epic is a good idea. Maybe some stone giants and the odd dragon. Conversely, I have to admit that I haven't been able to get Open Dungeons to run yet so I cannot check your concept against the status of the game; I will post a detailed report in the Bugs and Feature Requests forum when I have time. Yes, moarEpic might take a while to attempt. I wish I could say something smart here but that is all that I can squeeze out of my brain for the present.
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Re: What there is to do & SumWars/LoS

Postby Skorpio » 22 Dec 2012, 14:02

I meant more the environment/city building aspect than the enemies, but of course you need epic enemies that attack your epic fortress. ;) What I have in mind is a mix between Dwarf Fortress and Stronghold with a strategic world map where you can attack other fortresses and claim resources. Perhaps this would work better as an independent game not a mod or fork for Open Dungeons. A mod for 0AD could be nice, because it looks already pretty much like I imagine it. And of course it would be cool if you could play it as an ARPG, too, like Dwarf Fortress. But for such a mammoth project, a lot of dedicated contributers and a lot of time would be necessary and therefore it seems to be a little bit unrealistic. ;)
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Re: What there is to do & SumWars/LoS

Postby TheAncientGoat » 22 Dec 2012, 14:51

(would totally be possible in Lips Of Suna's engine) :P
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Re: What there is to do & SumWars/LoS

Postby Skorpio » 23 Dec 2012, 16:52

Yeah, I also thought this could work well in Lips of Suna, but only if the performance can be improved. When I came to Lips the framerate dropped to something like 10 FPS (but my pc is kinda old ;) ).
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