Factional Alignment system: Creatures

Factional Alignment system: Creatures

Postby Keldaryth » 17 Jun 2010, 16:08

Okay, following on from posts in this thread, I am going to use this space to put together a suggested creature roster and examples of how they would work (both in terms of gameplay and gameplay mechanics) in OD.

In order to create these lists I have used the following logic:

Creatures in the Open Dungeon game that are accessible to the player require a level of tactical utility. I have broken down that utility into the following archetypes and filled in the blanks for each faction (note that some factions do not have creatures filling every archetype role). The precise personality of each creature and function within that role can be determined at the individual creature level and would be something to be done when a system for creature statistics and happiness is worked out.

Creature Archetypes:
Tank - Can take a lot of damage. Can sometimes deal a lot of damage, but basically a meat (or other substance) shield
Ranged - Fires projectile weapons for distance damage
Scout - used for exploring territory quickly - often skirmishers (or really bad skirmishers)
Magic - Magical attacks (often ranged) and research
Skirmisher - light fighter, often for flank attacks
Support - bolsters the other creatures, possibly in terms of courage, effectiveness and/or healing
Worker - Assuming we're going with three (and only three) Kobolds, a worker creature adds some interesting options, as they help a player expand and do things, but can cost resources to maintain and/or take up creature slots if these are limited
Blitzer - Does massive damage, but can't always take massive damage
Commander - Increases the effectiveness (and possible AI) of surrounding creatures
Other - anything else, wacky stuff.

Human Creatures
Warrior - Tank
Archer - Ranged
Rogue - Scout
Wizard - Magic
Maiden - Support
Cleric/Priest - Support
Miner - Worker
Monk - Blitzer
Knight - Commander
Homunculus - Other/Worker

Note: Humans currently lack a skirmishing creature, although the rogue can fill this spot in a pinch.

Children of the Deep / Copar Creatures
Minotaur - Tank
Spider/Lizard Rider - Scout/Skirmisher
Naga - Magic
Goblin - Skirmisher/Worker
Shaman (Troll) - Support
Berzerker (Orc) - Blitzer
Stone Priest (Troll) - Commander
Warlord (Minotaur) - Commander
Earth Elemental - Other/Tank

Note: The Children lack a ranged unit - being a collective of native underground races living in twisting passageways and dark caverns, a specialised ranged unit makes little sense. A lot of other fantasy use underground races that invade the surface or hunt on the surface or were once surface dwellers to get around this, but any long ranged missiles make little sense for a native underground race.

Construct Creatures
Stone Golem - Tank/Ranged
Spider Golem - Scout/Skirmisher
Gold Golem - Magic
Servitor Golem - Support/Worker
Mechminer - Worker
Steel Constuct - Blitzer
Diamond Golem - Commander

Undead Creatures
Zombie - Tank
Wight - Tank
Skeleton Archer - Ranged
Wraith - Scout/Magic/Commander
Necromancer - Magic/Commander/Support
Skeleton - Skirmisher
Ghoul - Skirmisher/Worker
Bone Golem - Blitzer
Vampire - Blitzer

Denizens of the Deep Creatures
Hydra - Tank
Basilisk - Ranged (potentially magic)
Manticore - Ranged/Blitzer
Giant Lizard - Scout/Skirmisher
Giant Spider - Skirmisher (possibly scout depending on the type of spider used)
Giant Beetle - Skirmisher/Scout
Kobold - Worker
Dragon - Tank/Commander

Note: The denizens list represents the other native creatures of The Deeps that are not affiliated with any faction. They can be used to provide challenges for the player, as a resource for the Children of the Deep and as creature fodder for the Undead.

How to read the following creature descriptions
Each creature below will be given a brief introduction describing what I envision them to be (debate and suggestions are open :p) which should give you an insight into why I proposed them (which in my opinion is more important than what is actually proposed).
Their faction is listed, as although each has a primary faction, one or two could be members of multiple factions. More creatures like that are needed to make things a bit more interesting.
Each creature is then given an alignment rating both on the two axis (Lawful - Chaotic / Good - Evil) and three axis (Altruism - Egotism / Order - Chaos / Peace - Violence) scales. With debate still raging as to which scale to use, I'm going to put in both to look at interaction effects. Personally I prefer simpler, but I'm doing both so there's actually a system to debate with.
Each creature is then given a Faction Coefficient for each of the four main factions (Denizens generally won't be playable, bar Kobolds), from -1 to 1 which shows how well disposed that creature is to creatures of that faction (-1, hate, 1 love).
Each creature is then given 2 or 3 alignment coefficients for each of the alignment axes to show how well disposed they are towards the Keeper's alignment (as represented by his/her starting alignment modifiers, hired creature alignment mix and any alignment affecting rooms).

All factors and coefficients range from -1 to 1.
For alignment coefficients:

2 Axis system:
Lawful/Chaos Axis: 1 is Lawful, -1 is Chaotic
Good/Evil Axis: 1 is Good, -1 is Evil

3 Axis system
Altruism/Egotism Axis: 1 is Altruistic, -1 is Egotistic
Order/Chaos Axis: 1 is Orderly, -1 is Chaotic
Peace/Violence Axis: 1 is Peaceful, -1 is Violent
Last edited by Keldaryth on 18 Jun 2010, 10:43, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Factional Alignment system: Creatures

Postby Keldaryth » 17 Jun 2010, 16:09

Human Creatures

Warrior
The Warrior is the basic soldier in the employ of Lord Darius and his generals.
Faction: Human 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC 0.8, GE 0.4 (usually follows orders, but is really more in it for the money than a just cause).
Alignment (3 Axis): AE -0.6, OC 0.8, PV -0.9 (in it for the money, usually follows orders, violent)
Faction Coefficients: Humans 1, Children -0.5, Constructs 0, Undead -1 (Likes humans, doesn't typically like the Children as they fight a lot, indifferent to constructs as they only really fought the nobility and the constructs defended them against the hated undead).
Alignment Coefficients
2 Axis: LC 0.8, GE 0.8 (generally prefers to be around people who value structure as they do, and prefer to be fighting for a good cause)
3 Axis: AE: 0.6, OC 0.8, PV -0.1 (value altruism in others, prefer structure and tend to like people who see action as a solution, although they value peace highly).

Archer
The Archer is a soldier trained in Archery - basically a ranged warrior.
Faction: Human 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC 0.8, GE 0.4 (usually follows orders, but is really more in it for the money than a just cause).
Alignment (3 Axis): AE -0.6, OC 0.8, PV -0.9 (in it for the money, usually follows orders, violent)
Faction Coefficients: Humans 1, Children -0.5, Constructs 0, Undead -1 (Likes humans, doesn't typically like the Children as they fight a lot, indifferent to constructs as they only really fought the nobility and the constructs defended them against the hated undead).
Alignment Coefficients
2 Axis: LC 0.8, GE 0.8 (generally prefers to be around people who value structure as they do, and prefer to be fighting for a good cause)
3 Axis: AE: 0.6, OC 0.8, PV -0.1 (value altruism in others, prefer structure and tend to like people who see action as a solution, although they value peace highly).

Rogue
The Rogue is the master of stealth, making him an ideal scout - and thief!
Faction: Human 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC -0.6, GE: 0 (the law is there to be broken for my benefit)
Alignment (3 axis): AE -0.9, OC, -0.6, PV 0 (the law is there to be broken for my benefit by the best means possible)
Faction Coefficients: Humans 0.5, Children -0.2, Constructs -0.4, Undead -1 (Humanity is nice, but this army's really big on the order and procedure, pah! The children are so easy to steal from, but their retribution is a bit harsh, Constructs are so...so... boring and undead have no appreciation for finesse, or gold. And they smell!)
Alignment Coefficients
2 Axis: LC -0.5, GE 0 (doesn't like following rules)
3 Axis: AE -0.5, OC -0.5, PV 0.6 (doesn't like following rules, prefers peaceful communities - they're easier to steal from and get away with it in)

Wizard
A Wizard of the Crescent Moon Order, dedicating his/her life to studying the magical arts. Can summon Homunculi.
Faction: Human 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC: 0.5, GE: 0 (Structure is a good thing in learning and study)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE -0.3, OC 0.5, PV 0.7 (I want to study my own thing, structured learning is good, Study is generally better than violence)
Faction Coefficients: Humans 0.8, Children -0.3, Constructs -0.9, Undead -0.8 (like humans, the Children seem dangerous, the constructs betrayed us! The undead are repulsive, but I wonder what magics make them work...)
Alignment Coefficients
2 Axis: LC 0.4, GE 0.2 (value some structure and societies that are good, but with room for scientific research into anything)
3 Axis: AE 0, OC 0.4, PV 0.5 (as above with a preference for study not interrupted by warfare)

Maiden
Trained in most of the finer arts, a Maiden is at home researching (although she has no magical abilities of her own) or crafting works of art. Her mere presence can inspire her companions, although other women may resent her presence, and non-humans are less likely to respond to her beauty and charm.
Faction: Human 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC 0, GE 0.9, (The maiden is indifferent to the law as it applies to herself, although she is generally a good person)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE -0.8, OC 0, PV 1, (The maiden is vain, indifferent to law as it applies to herself, and is not trained for combat in any way)
Faction Coefficients: Humans 1, Children -0.9, Constructs -0.5, Undead -1 (She likes and can manipulate humans, finds the children brutish, the undead repulsive and harbors some fear of constructs after their betrayal)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC 0.8, GE 0.8, (The maiden appreciates a lawful society as her skills require that other people follow the rules. She prefers to be somewhere she will be well treated)
3 Axis: AE 0.9, OC 0.8, PV 0.9 (The maiden appreciates peaceful, lawful societies where people will be nice to her)

Cleric
A holy man/woman (possibly also a warrior) wielding the blessings of a god
Faction: Human 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC 1, GE 1, (This assumes the cleric follows the rules laid out by his or her god and that that god is a force of good)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE 0.9, OC 1, PV 0, (A true cleric strives to be altruistic, strictly follows the rules of his/her god - holy violence is allowed if necessary.)
Faction Coefficients: Humans 1, Children 0, Constructs -0.5, Undead -1 (The god is a human deity, the children are heathens in need of conversion, constructs are dangerous - possibly abominations - but the undead are very much unholy)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC 0.5, GE 0.5, (Although the cleric will prefer lawful good societies, bringing the light into the darkness is a sacred mission after all)
3 Axis: AE 0.5, OC 0.5, PV 0.2 (As above)
Note: This unit requires the development of religion and human deities (or a deity). Depending on the deity developed the above values may well need to change.

Miner
Since the current backstory revolves around humanity trying to mine the wealth of the underground, it makes sense that they'd bring in a miner - can cut down rock and mine gold or other resources quickly, but is less able at crafting goods.
Faction: Human 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC 0.5, GE 0, (Average men, they tend to follow the law in so far as they think of it, not notably good or evil.)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE -0.8, OC 0.5, PV 0.6, (Average men - they're largely in it for themselves, follow the law in so far as they think of it, and their fighting is generally limited to brawling)
Faction Coefficients: Humans 1, Children -1, Constructs 0.7, Undead -1 (Humans are their fellows, the children slaughtered them, the constructs protected them before disappearing, and the undead are just creepy - and dangerous!)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC 0.9, GE 0.2, (They like a society where they know what's happening and generally prefer to live in a good society)
3 Axis: AE 0.5, OC 0.9, PV 0.9 (As above. They value altruism in others even if they don't show it themselves)

Monk
An eastern styled martial monk.
Faction: Human 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC 1, GE 0, (Monks seek enlightenment, and their martial prowess is born of a desire for self discipline. They seek to transcend notions of good and evil, seeking to live in harmony with everything)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE 1, OC 1, PV 0, (Monks have little or no use for material goods, are renown for their discipline and although generally peaceful, can kick butt if necessary)
Faction Coefficients: Humans 1, Children 0, Constructs -0.8, Undead -1 (Humans need to transcend this cycle of suffering, the children may do the same, but regardless should be lived in harmony with, the constructs and the undead are an affront to the natural order of things)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC 1, GE 0, (Monks are attracted to well structured societies. They are unaffected by good or evil, as both are simply mirrors of each other and both have their excesses)
3 Axis: AE 1, OC 1, PV 0.5 (Monks like altruistic organised societies that practice charity - which they live off - that are not full of meaningless violence and suffering)

Knight
A noble commander in the service of Lord Darius
Faction: Human 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC 0.9, GE 0.8, (Knights are schooled to uphold the law and work for the benefit of all)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE 0.7, OC 0.9, PV -0.6, (As above, although the knight is trained to protect those weaker than themselves with martial training)
Faction Coefficients: Humans 1, Children -0.8, Constructs -0.7, Undead -1 (I will protect the people of Evariar from those that would do them harm)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC 0.9, GE 0.9, (Knights like orderly societies that treat people well)
3 Axis: AE 0.8, OC 0.9, PV 0 (As above. Although a knight values peace, s/he will go to war as necessary)

Homunculus
A magical servant created/summoned by a wizard. It will do simple tasks (research, mining, crafting) under supervision. It is not affected by the maiden, but will be more effective working alongside its summoning wizard.
Faction: Human 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC 1, GE 0, (A homunculus is build to do what it is told)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE 0, OC 1, PV 0, (As above)
Faction Coefficients: Humans 0, Children 0, Constructs 0, Undead 0 (As above)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC 0, GE 0, (As above)
3 Axis: AE 0, OC 0, PV 0 (As above)
Note: The homunculus is designed to be a summoned unit only (needing mana upkeep) and as such coefficients for it are meaningless. In any case, it has no higher brain functions and holds no opinions anyway.
Last edited by Keldaryth on 17 Jun 2010, 18:17, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Factional Alignment system: Creatures

Postby Keldaryth » 17 Jun 2010, 16:09

Children of the Deep / Corpar Creatures
The Children of the Deep (or Corpars as they are known by humans) are a loose alliance of various clans of orcs, goblins, trolls and minotaurs, sometimes advised by those natural guardians who reside in the territories they claim. All Children of the Deep believe they are born of the mother goddess - the rock of the world - and they protect the physical body of their deity with fanatical fervour. They believe that the riches of the subterranean realm should not be taken into the world above, and are waging a fierce war against those surfacers who would rape and destroy their caverns. That said, the Children are not a cohesive whole. They are split into numerous factions and clan alliances that can shift at the blink of an eye, and rival warlords or alliances will often battle each other for territory or over other perceived points of difference.

Note: Most Children of the Deep / Corpar creatures have a GE alignment rating of 0. This is because they believe that nature runs in cycles of war and death, that the strong survive and the weak perish. Suffering is a matter of life, and while personal suffering is to be avoided, suffering is not in and of itself 'bad'. It is simply part of the natural order and is accepted as such.

Minotaur/Minotaur Warlord
A proud clan of warriors, the minotaur have found a home amongst the children of the deep. They have a developed clan structure and value personal and clan honour. There is a rumour that they have descended from the magical experiments of a human wizard.

Faction: Children of the Deep / Corpar 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC 0.6, GE 0, (Minotaurs value the structure and order of their clan and codes of honour.)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE -0.5, OC 0.6, PV -0.4, (As above. A minotaur's first loyalty is to himself, then his clan. As a warrior race, minotaur society centres around battles and warfare)
Faction Coefficients: Humans -1, Children 1, Constructs 0.4, Undead -1 (Humans invade our lands, we can relate to the construct sense of honour, and the undead seek our demise at every turn)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC 0.6, GE 0, (Minotaurs like structure.)
3 Axis: AE -0.4, OC 0.6, PV -0.5 (Staying alive is paramount, order is good and the weak are not to be coddled. Warfare tests us constantly and weeds the weak from the strong)

Goblin/Spider Rider/Lizard Rider
Goblins are an inventive and dexterous race that enjoy inventing and building things - most notably traps to destroy their enemies so they don't have to fight. They are listed with the spider and lizard riders because the idea is that a goblin who captures or tames a giant spider or lizard can use it as a mount - lizards add speed and toughness, spiders add toughness and the ability to walk on walls. Normal unmounted goblins will toil happily in the forge, and can also build/construct golems if used in conjunction with constructs.

Faction: Children of the Deep / Corpar 0.8, Construct 0.2 (As born tinkerers mechanics and inventors, a number of goblins have gone over to the constructs to learn how to build these magnificent things)
Alignment (2 Axis): LC -0.6, GE 0, (Goblins are very badly organised, more interested in chasing the latest sparkly invention that crosses their minds. There's a reason the minotaurs do the bulk of the fighting)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE -0.2, OC -0.6, PV 0.4, (Absorbed in their own work, disliking organisation and preferring not to fight)
Faction Coefficients: Humans -1, Children 1, Constructs 0.8, Undead -1 (Humans and undead want to kill us, constructs are cool - I want to build one!)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC -0.6, GE 0, (Goblins dislike being told what to do and how to behave)
3 Axis: AE 0, OC -0.6, PV 0.6(As above. Goblins like being in the company of creatures who aren't going to hack them to pieces)

Naga
A serpentine creature with a humanlike head, a naga is a spiritual guardian of a natural feature, possessing formiddable magical powers which they utilise in defence of their home. Often a naga will form an alliance with the local Clans of Children of the Deep who reside nearby, and would make powerful commanders should they ever decide such a move was necessary.
Faction: Children of the Deep / Corpar 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC -0.2, GE 0, (Nagas have little inherent structure or organisation)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE -0.6, OC -0.2, PV 0, (As above. Nagas are generally concerned with the defense and wellbeing of their home and little more)
Faction Coefficients: Humans -1, Children 0.8, Constructs -0.2, Undead -1 (Humans and undead despoil nature. The children generally respect it, constructs do unwitting damage and have yet to find their place in this world.)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC 0, GE 0, (Nagas are generally concerned with the defense and wellbeing of their home and little more)
3 Axis: AE 0, OC 0, PV 0 (Nagas are generally concerned with the defense and wellbeing of their home and little more)

Shaman/Stone Priest (Troll)
Trolls are the mystics amongst the Children of the Deep, and most seek communion with the earth mother. Those who achieve it often go one to lead the Children of the Deep.
Faction: Children of the Deep / Corpars 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC 0.5, GE 0, (While the Shamans strive for the natural order and try to enforce discipline their very nature requires them to acknowledge the forces of mysticism that are outside the logical)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE 0, OC 0.5, PV 0, (The trolls seek to serve the Earthmother, however they can, this may mean being selfish one day and caring the next. The only constant is that some organisation between them helps them to achieve their goals.)
Faction Coefficients: Humans -1, Children 1, Constructs 0.5, Undead -1 (The humans and undead despoil the land. The children can preserve it and the constructs fight our enemies. Maybe they can find a place in service of she of whose flesh they are formed)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC 0.5, GE 0, (The trolls seek to serve the Earthmother, however they can. The only constant is that some organisation between them helps them to achieve their goals.)
3 Axis: AE 0, OC 0.5, PV 0 (The trolls seek to serve the Earthmother, however they can. The only constant is that some organisation between them helps them to achieve their goals.)

Orc Berzerker
As wild as the goblins but more warlike, the Orcish Clans charge gleefully into battle with little regard for personal safety. Often viewed as barbarians, orcs have an innate cunning and their ferocity has led them to become an often used - if not well liked - part of the Children's alliances and political infighting.
Faction: Children of the Deep / Corpars 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC -0.9, GE 0, (Orc like fight. Orc like fight a lot.)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE 0, OC ,-0.9 PV -1, (as above)
Faction Coefficients: Humans -1, Children 0.9, Constructs 0, Undead -1 (Orc like fight. Humans and Undead fight orcs. Constructs sometimes fight alongside orcs.)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC -0.9, GE 0, (Orc like fight)
3 Axis: AE 0, OC -0.9, PV -0.9 (See above)
Notes: Orcs could also be used as tanks, but I don't see them as being that tough - that's a personal thing though, and open to debate.

Earth Elemental
A spirit of earth - summonable by Priests of Stone.
Faction: Children of the Deep / Corpars 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC 0, GE 0, (It's a mass of animated rock)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE 0, OC 0, PV -1, (It's a mass of animated rock that hits people)
Faction Coefficients: Humans -1, Children 1, Constructs 1, Undead -1 (Only here for interaction purposes, humans and undead are enemy of its summoners, constructs are made much like it is.)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC 0, GE 0, (See above re: rock)
3 Axis: AE 0, OC 0, PV 0 (See above re: rock. It is a creature of violence, but it doesn't care what the other creatures do)
Last edited by Keldaryth on 17 Jun 2010, 20:32, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Factional Alignment system: Creatures

Postby Keldaryth » 17 Jun 2010, 16:09

Construct Creatures

Constructs are creatures of logic, not emotion. They act and behave logically and once took it upon themselves to right wrongs and punish crimes. Since they logically don't do any of these in their own company - yet - they are now continuing their original directive - destroy all undead. It should be noted that since discovering reasoning, some constructs will inevitably work out how to be underhanded and sneaky, but it's not easy to be either when you're eight feet tall and weight over a ton.

Note that as all constructs fall into two categories: self aware and rude mechanicals. As they all share the same logic (or lack of logic) they will invariably share the exact same faction and alignment coefficients.

Note also that it is possible that constructs should be constructed rather than appear through portals, or a combination of both. This should be decided somewhere else rather than here.

Constructs are immune to poison.

Stone Golem
The basic design of the stone golem as built by the Wizards of the Order of the Crescent moon has changed little. It's a giant humanoid of stone. It hits with fists of stone - and throws rocks at you. Expect pain. Resistant to fire.
Faction: Constructs 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC 1, GE 0,
Alignment (3 Axis): AE 0, OC 1, PV 0, (Constructs are creatures of logic. The logic is ultimate and the rest is dictated by that logic.)
Faction Coefficients: Humans -0.7, Children 0, Constructs 1, Undead -1 (Undead cause suffering to all they encounter, and humans are too cowardly to fight their own battles and cause much of their own suffering. The children are the enemy of our enemy, and may yet be our friends.)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC 1, GE 0, (Logic is everything)
3 Axis: AE 0.5, OC 1, PV 0 (The moral code developed by the constructs causes them to value altruism in others. They recognise its effects even if it seems illogical in a large number of instances. Help your neighbour who may help you, but why help a beggar who will never be in a position to return the favour?)

Spider Golem
A construct of steel inspired by the giant spiders, this construct is used as a scout and like its namesake can climb on walls - it's not nearly as stealthy however.
Faction: Construct 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC 1, GE 0, (This construct is a mechanical and has no higher reasoning abilities)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE 0, OC 1, PV 0, (This construct is a mechanical and has no higher reasoning abilities)
Faction Coefficients: Humans 0, Children 0, Constructs 0, Undead 0 (This construct is a mechanical and has no higher reasoning abilities)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC 0, GE 0, (This construct is a mechanical and has no higher reasoning abilities)
3 Axis: AE 0, OC 0, PV 0 (This construct is a mechanical and has no higher reasoning abilities)

Gold Golem
Forged expensively from soft malleable gold, this golem is able to hold and channel magic, as well as being an excellent researcher.
Faction: Constructs 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC 1, GE 0,
Alignment (3 Axis): AE 0, OC 1, PV 0, (Constructs are creatures of logic. The logic is ultimate and the rest is dictated by that logic.)
Faction Coefficients: Humans -0.7, Children 0, Constructs 1, Undead -1 (Undead cause suffering to all they encounter, and humans are too cowardly to fight their own battles and cause much of their own suffering. The children are the enemy of our enemy, and may yet be our friends.)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC 1, GE 0, (Logic is everything)
3 Axis: AE 0.5, OC 1, PV 0 (The moral code developed by the constructs causes them to value altruism in others. They recognise its effects even if it seems illogical in a large number of instances. Help your neighbour who may help you, but why help a beggar who will never be in a position to return the favour?)

Servitor Golem
Shaped often as a whirling mass of arms ending in sculpting and forging tools, servitors are a mess of scuttling legs and gears, and bare no resemblance to humans at all. Created by the golems themselves to replace the wizards and artisans who first created them, the servitor works to create and mend golems and other constructs as well as constructing other objects as needed.
Faction: Construct 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC 1, GE 0, (This construct is a mechanical and has no higher reasoning abilities)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE 0, OC 1, PV 0, (This construct is a mechanical and has no higher reasoning abilities)
Faction Coefficients: Humans 0, Children 0, Constructs 0, Undead 0 (This construct is a mechanical and has no higher reasoning abilities)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC 0, GE 0, (This construct is a mechanical and has no higher reasoning abilities)
3 Axis: AE 0, OC 0, PV 0 (This construct is a mechanical and has no higher reasoning abilities)

Mechminer
Creating Constructs is a resource intensive process and mechanical miners were created to gather the required resources as swiftly as possible. Built on the same chasis as the Spider Golem enables them to traverse the subterranean terrain with ease, and their powerful blows allow one mechminer to do the work of several men. Prior to the Golem rebellion, mechminers were also used by humans to mine ore in dangerous locations.
Faction: Construct 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC 1, GE 0, (This construct is a mechanical and has no higher reasoning abilities)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE 0, OC 1, PV 0, (This construct is a mechanical and has no higher reasoning abilities)
Faction Coefficients: Humans 0, Children 0, Constructs 0, Undead 0 (This construct is a mechanical and has no higher reasoning abilities)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC 0, GE 0, (This construct is a mechanical and has no higher reasoning abilities)
3 Axis: AE 0, OC 0, PV 0 (This construct is a mechanical and has no higher reasoning abilities)

Steel Construct
The first successful creation of the gold golems, a steel construct looks very much like an animated suit of plate armour, and fights accordingly, typically wielding an oversized blade of some description (swords and axes are popular). Being made of hollow metal they are more easily destroyed than other golems, but are the swiftest of all the golems, bar the much more delicate spider golems.
Faction: Constructs 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC 1, GE 0,
Alignment (3 Axis): AE 0, OC 1, PV 0, (Constructs are creatures of logic. The logic is ultimate and the rest is dictated by that logic.)
Faction Coefficients: Humans -0.7, Children 0, Constructs 1, Undead -1 (Undead cause suffering to all they encounter, and humans are too cowardly to fight their own battles and cause much of their own suffering. The children are the enemy of our enemy, and may yet be our friends.)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC 1, GE 0, (Logic is everything)
3 Axis: AE 0.5, OC 1, PV 0 (The moral code developed by the constructs causes them to value altruism in others. They recognise its effects even if it seems illogical in a large number of instances. Help your neighbour who may help you, but why help a beggar who will never be in a position to return the favour?)

Diamond Golem
Exactly who created the first diamond golem - and how - remains a mystery. All that is known is that battle reports have come through of a golem shining brightly and directing the other constructs in battle.
Note: Diamond Golems are resistant to heat and cold, and have a blind attack that works on any living creature that uses vision to navigate.
Faction: Constructs 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC 1, GE 0,
Alignment (3 Axis): AE 0, OC 1, PV 0, (Constructs are creatures of logic. The logic is ultimate and the rest is dictated by that logic.)
Faction Coefficients: Humans -0.7, Children 0, Constructs 1, Undead -1 (Undead cause suffering to all they encounter, and humans are too cowardly to fight their own battles and cause much of their own suffering. The children are the enemy of our enemy, and may yet be our friends.)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC 1, GE 0, (Logic is everything)
3 Axis: AE 0.5, OC 1, PV 0 (The moral code developed by the constructs causes them to value altruism in others. They recognise its effects even if it seems illogical in a large number of instances. Help your neighbour who may help you, but why help a beggar who will never be in a position to return the favour?)
Last edited by Keldaryth on 17 Jun 2010, 21:04, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Factional Alignment system: Creatures

Postby Keldaryth » 17 Jun 2010, 16:10

Undead Creatures
Like the Constructs, the Undead creature list is separated into those with reasoning and those without, the difference being that those with higher reasoning are typically individually distinct from each other, unlike the constructs who share the same logic base.

Most animated undead should be built or summoned, however there is room for reasoning undead to be recruited via portals if this is the desire

Undead are immune to poison

Zombie
A magically animated non-skeletal corpse.
Faction: Undead 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC 1, GE 0, (Animated undead obey their orders unfailingly. They have no thoughts of their own)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE 0, OC 1, PV 0, (Animated undead obey their orders unfailingly. They have no thoughts of their own)
Faction Coefficients: Humans 0, Children 0, Constructs 0, Undead 0 (Animated Undead with no reasoning ability)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC , GE , (Animated Undead with no reasoning ability)
3 Axis: AE , OC , PV (Animated Undead with no reasoning ability)

Wight
A wight is a corpse possessed by a demonic spirit. While independent of thought, a wight will usually obey its summoner - assuming it has one.
Faction: Undead 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC 0.6, GE -1, (As a demonic spirit, the Wight is out to cause as much death and destruction as possible - creating hosts for more wights)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE -1, OC 0.6, PV -1, (As above)
Faction Coefficients: Humans -1, Children -1, Constructs -1, Undead 1 (Just about everyone else is out to get the undead)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC 0, GE -1, (A wight wants mayhem and destruction and doesn't care where it gets it)
3 Axis: AE 0, OC 0, PV -1 (See above)

Skeleton/Skeleton Archer
An animated skeleton, sometimes armed with a bow or crossbow.
Faction: Undead 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC 1, GE 0, (Animated undead obey their orders unfailingly. They have no thoughts of their own)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE 0, OC 1, PV 0, (Animated undead obey their orders unfailingly. They have no thoughts of their own)
Faction Coefficients: Humans 0, Children 0, Constructs 0, Undead 0 (Animated Undead with no reasoning ability)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC , GE , (Animated Undead with no reasoning ability)
3 Axis: AE , OC , PV (Animated Undead with no reasoning ability)

Necromancer
A wizard who has decided to practice dark magic. Necromancers are not immune to poison and are still mortal humans. They can summon skeletons and zombies.
Faction: Undead 0.5, Human 0.5
Alignment (2 Axis): LC -0.6, GE -0.5, (Necromancers see society as a means to their ends and have little respect for laws, but will take any opportunity to further their own goals. Not all necromancers are evil, but dark magics and association with demonic spirits can warp even those with the best intentions)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE -0.9, OC -0.6, PV -0.3, (Necromancers tend towards violence, albeit indirectly. See above)
Faction Coefficients: Humans 1, Children -0.6, Constructs -1, Undead 1 (Necromancers are quite happy to move amongst humans, although the reverse is not usually true. They do not feel safe around the children of the deep and hate the way constructs hunt them down.)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC -0.8, GE 0, (Necromancers care about being able to do their work)
3 Axis: AE 0, OC -0.8, PV -0.5 (As above, but they are drawn to violent societies due to an abundance of corpses to use)

Wraith
A wraith is the spirit of a dark necromancer who has since died, summoned back to serve another. They typically chafe at this servitude, although some have found a way to achieve an independent incorporeal existence.
Faction: Undead 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC -1, GE -1, (When summoned back the only thing that remains of the former necromancer is his or her power and ambition)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE -1, OC -1, PV -0.5, (See above. Wraiths are not the best at violence with no corporeal form, do what they can.)
Faction Coefficients: Humans 0.6, Children 0.4, Constructs -1, Undead 1 (Those alive are either for experimentation with or seek a wraith's destruction, but if it can slip in unharmed could raise an army as it watches those around it fall one by one by one...)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC -0.9, GE 0, (Wraiths follow their own impulses, and don't give a damn the morality of those around them. The goody two shoes can be slain after all...)
3 Axis: AE 0, OC -0.9, PV -0.6 (See above, Wraiths are drawn to violence for the same reason - more bodies.)

Ghoul
It is said that Ghouls were once men who ate the flesh of their own dead, and often resemble the corpses they consume. These creatures are nevertheless alive and although listed as undead for factional purposes, are NOT immune to poison. They are however, some of the best when it comes to uncovering and finding dead bodies - if they can be persuaded to stop eating them. They are cunning and inventive and with the right supervision (and the promise of scraps) can be an effective workforce.
Faction: Undead 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC 0, GE -1, (Ghouls are mostly concerned with their next meal, and are not above killing something - or someone - to feast on its flesh)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE -0.9, OC 0, PV -0.7, (See above)
Faction Coefficients: Humans 0.3, Children 0.3, Constructs -1, Undead 1 (Ever the opportunists, a ghoul will happily linger around any graveyard for the chance of food - obviously it can't eat constructs though)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC -0.4, GE -0.4, (Ghouls prefer societies where the occasional corpse - or person - won't be missed if eaten.)
3 Axis: AE -0.6, OC -0.4, PV -1 (As above, with a preference for more carnage - more food!)

Bone Golem
A misnomer as a bone golem is really an animated skeleton pieced together from multiple corpses, often utilising bones from larger species such as minotaurs and trolls.
Faction: Undead 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC 1, GE 0, (Animated undead obey their orders unfailingly. They have no thoughts of their own)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE 0, OC 1, PV 0, (Animated undead obey their orders unfailingly. They have no thoughts of their own)
Faction Coefficients: Humans 0, Children 0, Constructs 0, Undead 0 (Animated Undead with no reasoning ability)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC , GE , (Animated Undead with no reasoning ability)
3 Axis: AE , OC , PV (Animated Undead with no reasoning ability)

Vampire
Bloodsuckers. They suck blood, can't cross running water and burn in sunlight. Other than that they can pass for human and like being around their natural prey
Faction: Undead 0.5, Human 0.5
Alignment (2 Axis): LC -0.8, GE -0.5, (Vampires march to their own tune, and looking upon people as food often leads them down the path of not caring much about them at all)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE -0.8, OC -.8, PV -0.3, (As above. Vampires are good at violence and don't mind it if it results in a feed)
Faction Coefficients: Humans 0.8, Children 0.1, Constructs -1, Undead 0.9 (Humans are food - so are the Children, but it's harder to blend in. Constructs are dangerous and can't be fed off, and other undead are safe, but poor conversationalists or food sources)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC -0.3, GE -0.2, (Vampires don't care about the society much as long as they can feed there)
3 Axis: AE 0, OC -0.3, PV -0.7 (Vampires don't care about the society much as long as they can feed there)
Last edited by Keldaryth on 17 Jun 2010, 21:48, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Factional Alignment system: Creatures

Postby Keldaryth » 17 Jun 2010, 16:10

Denizens of the Deep
Note: these denizens (bar kobolds) are largely meant to be unaffiliated creatures that the player and their creatures can interact with. As such, their coefficients are probably meaningless from a dungeon attraction perspective, but given that there will undoubtedly be scenario makers who want to put the player in control of a dragon, they may be useful down the line, and if nothing else provide a guide for inter-species interactions, especially if interaction by faction/alignment is used.

EDIT: After the test run of Dungeon 4 Kobolds are being changed to having a denizen faction score of zero to allow for a players factional make up to have a bigger role in shaping his or her dungeon population

Kobold
A helpful earth spirit that animates a piece of rock. The basic worker of the Dungeon Temple
Faction: Denizen 0
Alignment (2 Axis): 0 LC , 0 GE , (Equally helpful to all, Kobolds do not appear to hold any discernable moral code)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE 0, OC 0, PV 0, (Equally helpful to all, Kobolds do not appear to hold any discernable moral code)
Faction Coefficients: Humans 1, Children 1, Constructs 1, Undead 1 (Equally helpful to all, Kobolds appear to make no judgment on the basis of faction)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC 0, GE 0, (Equally helpful to all, Kobolds do not appear to hold any discernable moral code)
3 Axis: AE 0, OC 0, PV 0 (Equally helpful to all, Kobolds do not appear to hold any discernable moral code)
Note: Kobolds have factors and coefficients of 0 due to game mechanics. As they are meant to be used by everyone it makes no sense to penalise a faction for using a unit the game forces them to use.

Hydra
At first glance looking like a multi-headed dragon, a hydra is not possessed of the dragons' higher reasoning abilities. Dragons hate hydras, and hydras that survive have learnt that anything draconic is likely to attack them on sight.
Faction: Denizen 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC -0.5, GE 0, (The hydra is a carnivorous animal that has little in the way of social structure.)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE -0.8, OC -0.5, PV -0.6, (As above)
Faction Coefficients: Humans -0.8, Children -0.8, Constructs 0, Undead -1 (The hydra sees humans and the Children of the Deep as threats and food sources, while the constructs appear to be neither. The undead are perceived as unnatural to its animalistic senses)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC 0, GE 0, (With no higher reasoning, a hydra does not care what sort of society it exists in)
3 Axis: AE 0, OC 0, PV 0 (With no higher reasoning, a hydra does not care what sort of society it exists in

Basilisk
A Basilisk is a large, venomous serpent with a crown like crest. It has a magical ability to kill those that meet its gaze - naturally this only works on living creatures. It is carnivorous. They also don't seem to like chickens.
Faction: Denizen 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC -0.5, GE 0, (Like a hydra a basilisk does not have a developed society or higher reasoning. It is however, just as carnivorous.)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE -0.8, OC -0.5, PV -0.6, (As above)
Faction Coefficients: Humans -0.8, Children -0.8, Constructs 0, Undead -1 (The basilisk sees humans and the Children of the Deep as threats and food sources, while the constructs appear to be neither. The undead are perceived as unnatural to its animalistic senses - although some still get eaten)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC 0, GE 0, (Without higher reasoning a basilisk is indifferent to the motives of those around it.)
3 Axis: AE 0, OC 0, PV 0 (Without higher reasoning a basilisk is indifferent to the motives of those around it.)

Manticore
The body of a lion, the tail of a scorpion - with extra spikes - the wings of a dragon and the face of a man... the manticore is a creature of magic and evil cunning. They are one of the most feared predators of the Deeps, but have been known to form their own mini-societies of servants to further their own agendas. Manticores have a poisonous sting, and they are also able to shoot tailspikes at their enemies.
A manticore can fly

Faction: Denizen 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC -0.4, GE -1, (They tend towards individualism and definite evil)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE -1, OC -0.4, PV -0.5, (As above)
Faction Coefficients: Humans -1, Children -1, Constructs -0.6, Undead 0 (Humans and Children of the Deep are prey, or make passable if annoying servants. Constructs appear to be too moral to be of any use, but the mindless (or not so mindless) undead can make good servants)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC -0.5, GE -0.9, (Individualism and evil. Yep.)
3 Axis: AE -0.8, OC -0.5, PV -0.6 (As above. A manticore in a peaceful society feels the urge to make it much less peaceful...)

Giant Lizard
Giant lizards of all descriptions inhabit the Deeps, some traversing between the surface to keep warm and others basking in the heat given off by volcanic rock. Most are omnivorous and opportunistic feeders. Goblins have been known to tame giant lizards and ride them into - or away from - battle.
Faction: Denizen 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC -0.2, GE 0, (Lack of higher brain function. Omnivore)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE -0.2, OC -0.2, PV -0.4, (Lack of higher brain function and social structure. Omnivore.)
Faction Coefficients: Humans -0.5, Children -0.2, Constructs -0.5, Undead -0.8 (Giant Lizards are wary of everything, seeing them either as a potential food source, or a threat. They are more accepting of the Children of the Deep because long association has allowed the Children to understand their behaviour).
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC 0, GE 0, (A lizard is an animal which does not judge the attractiveness of its surroundings on the basis of the values its other inhabitants hold)
3 Axis: AE 0, OC 0, PV 0 (A lizard is an animal which does not judge the attractiveness of its surroundings on the basis of the values its other inhabitants hold)

Giant Spiders
Big spider. Really big spider. The goblins have been known to ride them into battle and around walls. Other times, they have been known to become spiderfood.

Note: I would suggest implementing both webspinning spiders (which stay in lairs) and hunting spiders (which roam). Only webspinning spiders would have a web attack, but would be slower than a hunting spider.

Note: Spiders are venomous

Faction: Denizen 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC -0.2, GE 0, (Lack of higher brain function. Carnivore)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE -0.2, OC -0.2, PV -0.6, (Lack of higher brain function. Carnivore)
Faction Coefficients: Humans -1, Children -1, Constructs 0, Undead -0.9 (The spiders see everything as food threat or not food (possibly things to hide behind or anchor webs to).
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC 0, GE 0, (A spider is an animal which does not judge the attractiveness of its surroundings on the basis of the values its other inhabitants hold)
3 Axis: AE 0, OC 0, PV 0 (A spider is an animal which does not judge the attractiveness of its surroundings on the basis of the values its other inhabitants hold)

Giant Beetle
Giant Beetles of all descriptions are part of the cleaning crew of the deeps, living on detritus and decaying vegetation - or smaller beetles and other prey.
Faction: Denizen 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC 0, GE 0, (Not particularly threatening unless you get too close, lack of higher brain functions)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE -0.7, OC 0, PV 0, (Not particularly threatening unless you get too close, lack of higher brain functions. No social structure)
Faction Coefficients: Humans 0, Children 0, Constructs 0, Undead 0 (Beetles don't seem to register other creatures until close to them - and then it's a question of threat and hunger more than anything else. If neither is perceived, they may ignore you.)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC 0, GE 0, (A beetle is an animal which does not judge the attractiveness of its surroundings on the basis of the values its other inhabitants hold)
3 Axis: AE 0, OC 0, PV 0 (A beetle is an animal which does not judge the attractiveness of its surroundings on the basis of the values its other inhabitants hold)

Dragon
You know - biz lizard with wings? Powerful magic? Breath weapon? Highly intelligent... yeah, those things wot hoard treasure and are said to eat Maidens. Dragons can fly

Note: Actual dragons are as variable in temperment as individual people. The following are for the classic 'adversary' dragons that populate fantasy literature.

Faction: Denizen 1
Alignment (2 Axis): LC -0.5, GE -0.5, (Classic dragons are prone to destruction and enjoy inflicting suffering on other creatures - both for food and sadistic amusement. This likely stems from a superiority complex)
Alignment (3 Axis): AE -0.9, OC -0.5, PV -0.5, (As above. Dragons are also VERY self centred)
Faction Coefficients: Humans -1, Children -1, Constructs -1, Undead -1 (Dragons really don't like many other creatures)
Alignment Coefficients:
2 Axis: LC 0, GE 0, (Dragons don't get on with others and don't care what the others believe - if they annoy the dragon, they're snack food.)
3 Axis: AE 0, OC 0, PV 0 (See above)
Last edited by Keldaryth on 18 Jun 2010, 15:07, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Factional Alignment system: Creatures

Postby Keldaryth » 17 Jun 2010, 16:10

Game Mechanics: An Explanation

The idea behind this proposed system is that a player is given a number of tracked attributes that will affect the desirability of his or her dungeon as perceived by each creature that could be recruited via a random portal. Broadly speaking, these attributes are the faction composition of the players dungeon and the average alignment of the players dungeon.

To explore these mechanics I will be using an example dungeon and making up a lot of the relationships between creatures and rooms that do not exist. Actually keep in mind this whole list of creatures doesn't really exist and was created specifically for the demonstration of these game mechanics!

Edit: These dungeons were created before the change was put through to make Kobolds have a faction score of 0. At the small scale this had little effect so the examples here still stand, but if you notice that discrepancy, that's why.

Dungeon One
In a new dungeon, a player builds the following rooms:
+ a Lair (place to sleep)
+ a food place (so creatures can eat)
+ a Library (for research, attracting researchers)
+ a barracks (attracting skirmishing humanoids)

A player starts with a Dungeon Temple and 3 Kobolds.

Kobolds have a Faction rating of Denizen 1
Kobolds have alignment ratings of 0 across both proposed alignment systems

Technically this gives the Keeper a Faction attribute of: Denizen 1/Human 0/Corpars 0/ Undead 0 / Construct 0
This happens because of 3 total creatures, 3 are denizens, giving 100% creature population of Denizens and 0% for all other factions.

Under the 2 Axis system:
A keeper has an alignment point of 0,0 - all his creatures have a coordinate of 0 for all alignment axes

Under the 3 Axis system:
A keeper has an alignment point of 0,0,0 - all his creatures have a coordinate of 0 for all alignment axes

With the room list available above, the following creatures might consider entering the player's dungeon:

+ Wizard
+ Goblin
+ Necromancer
+ Wraith
+ Gold Golem

Note: This assumes that a rogue is not attracted by a barracks, warriors and minotaurs need something else to attract them, and that a spider golem must be built, not attracted

In the first instance each creature has an equal probability of appearing in a players dungeon. With 5 creatures available, each creature has a base 20% chance (0.2 probability) of appearing.

Let's say a Wizard appears in the dungeon.

Dungeon 2

Now a player has the following attribute values

Factions: Denizens 0.75 | Human 0.25 | Construct 0 | Undead 0 | Corpars 0
(ratio of 3 denizens to 1 human)

A player also has the following alignment attributes:
Under the 2 axis alignment system: LC 0.125, GE 0
Under the 3 axis alignment system: AE -0.075, OC 0.125 PV 0.175

These alignment values are the averages of the alignment values of the keeper's creatures so LC was calculated as 3 kobolds with a LC alignment of 0 (3x0=0) plus 1 wizard with an LC alignment of 0.5 (1x0.5=0.5). 0.5 / 4 (the total number of creatures) = 0.125

Assuming no extra rooms are built, the same five creatures are still available:

+ Wizard
+ Goblin
+ Necromancer
+ Wraith
+ Gold Golem

Each still has a 0.2 probability of appearing in the creature portal, but these are now modified by how much they like the keeper's new faction and alignment attributes, which is determined by their faction and alignment coefficients.

The next wizard contemplating coming through has a base of 0.2 probability

Faction Modifiers

A wizard has the faction coefficients of: Humans 0.8, Children -0.3, Constructs -0.9, Undead -0.8
We multiply these by the faction attributes of the keeper: (0.8x0.25) + (-0.3x0) + -(0.9x0) + (-0.8x0) + (0x0.75) = 0.2

Note: The last element of the equation is for Denizens, all of our creatures default to a denizen coefficient of 0. Since this will never be calculated it is possible to leave it out of the equation, but it is included here for comprehensiveness).

This gives the Wizard a modified 0.4 probability of appearing.

Under the 2 axis alignment system the probability is then modified as follows:
Wizard alignment coefficients (2 axis system): LC 0.4, GE 0.2
Keeper alignment attributes (2 axis stystem): LC 0.125, GE 0

Modifier: (0.4x0.125) + (0.2x0) = 0.05

Wizard modified probability under a 2 axis alignment system: 0.45

Under the 3 axis alignment system the 0.4 probability is modified as follows:
Wizard alignment coefficients (3 axis system): AE 0, OC 0.4, PV 0.5
Keeper alignment attributes (3 axis system): AE -0.075, OC 0.125.1 PV 0.175

Modifer = (0x-0.075)+(0.4*0.125)+(0.5x0.175) = 0.1375

Wizard modified probability under a 3 axis alignment system: 0.5375

We then do the same for every other creature who might want to come in and we get:

Goblin modified probability under a 2 axis alignment system: -0.125
Goblin modified probability under a 3 axis alignment system: -0.02

Necromancer modified probability under a 2 axis alignment system: 0.35
Necromancer modified probability under a 3 axis alignment system: 0.2625

Wraith modified probability under a 2 axis alignment system: 0.2625
Wraith modified probability under a 3 axis alignment system: 0.1325

Gold Golem modified probability under a 2 axis alignment system: 0.15
Gold Golem modified probability under a 3 axis alignment system: 0.1125

So for a 2 axis alignment system our probabilities are:
Wizard: 0.45
Goblin: -0.125
Necromancer = 0.35
Wraith: 0.2625
Gold Golem 0.15

Now you can't have a negative probability, so we'll treat the goblin as having a zero probability of appearing - he just doesn't like your dungeon enough to walk in. Summing up the rest of the probabilities we have 0.45+0.35+0.2625+0.15 = 1.2125. That's a bit more than 100% - more like 121.25% so we rescale it to be out of one hundred percent:

Final 2 axis alignment system creature appearance probabilities:
Wizard: 0.37
Goblin: 0
Necromancer: 0.29
Wraith: 0.22
Gold Golem: 0.12

Doing the same for the 3 axis alignment system gives you an initial probability list of:

Wizard: 0.5375
Goblin: -0.02
Necromancer: 0.2625
Wraith: 0.1325
Gold Golem: 0.1125

And a rescaled probability list of:

Wizard: 0.51
Goblin: 0
Necromancer: 0.25
Wraith: 0.13
Gold Golem: 0.11

There is numerical difference between the two, but generally as intended, the wizard is most likely to attract a second wizard, scare off the children of the deep (with an initial faction modifier of -0.25, only somewhat mitigated by the goblin attraction to the dungeon alignment), while discouraging the thinking undead only marginally, and actually encouraging a necromancer - possibly looking for a convert or new knowledge to steal. Although the constructs generally dislike humans, there was enough of an alignment match to still keep the Gold Golem as a potential dungeon creature.

So what happens (for example) if we then say that against the odds, a Gold Golem *does* show up?

Dungeon 3
With the gold golem in the dungeon, the keeper faction attributes are as follows:
Human 0.2 | Corpar 0 | Construct 0.2 | Undead 0 | Denizen 0.6

2 Axis Alignment Attribute: LC 0.3 | GE 0
3 Axis Alignment Attribute: AE -0.06 | OC 0.3 | PV 0.14

Probability of Creature Appearance under the 2 Axis alignment system:
Wizard: 0.3
Goblin: -0.02
Necromancer: -0.04
Wraith: -0.09
Gold Golem: 0.56

Rescaled Probability of Creature Appearance under the 2 Axis alignment system:
Wizard: 0.35
Goblin: 0
Necromancer: 0
Wraith:0
Gold Golem: 065

Probability of Creature Appearance under the 3 Axis alignment system:
Wizard: 0.37
Goblin: 0.064
Necromancer: -0.11
Wraith: -0.234
Gold Golem: 0.53

Rescaled Probability of Creature Appearance under the 3 axis alignment system:
Wizard: 0.38
Goblin: 0.07
Necromancer: 0
Wraith: 0
Gold Golem: 0.55

Once again, as expected other wizards are still attracted due to the presence of a human creature and favorable alignment conditions, but are wary of walking into a situation where there's a construct next door. Similarly, the undead have been scared off by the presence of a construct and the goblins are more likely to show up, drawn by the desire to learn about construct construction (at least in the 3 axis system, the two axis system probably requires another golem to show up first.

Dungeon 4: Larger scale example
Posted here
Changes resulting from this dungeon: Kobolds changed from Denizen 1 to Denizen 0 to prevent them from skewing the factional proportions of a keeper's dungeon.

Dungeons 5-8: Larger scale testing with the 3 axis system
Well it does seem to work.

Dungeons 9-13: Larger scale comparative testing with the 2 axis system
It also seems to work.
Last edited by Keldaryth on 20 Jun 2010, 18:14, edited 12 times in total.
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Re: Factional Alignment system: Creatures

Postby Keldaryth » 17 Jun 2010, 16:50

Reserved for follow up thoughts and questions:

+ With more available creatures, base probability of appearance falls and alignment/faction modifiers have a much greater impact. This may be a realistic and desirable thing.

How are creatures created/gained - constructed versus summoned (portal system).
Creature 'Upgrades'? - Warrior =>Archer, Skeleton =>Skeleton Archer etc.

Alignment/Faction Compatibility based on alignment/faction coefficients and/or individually specified creature likes/dislikes?

How important are factions versus alignments in terms of probability weighting (if any)?
Last edited by Keldaryth on 19 Jun 2010, 22:10, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Factional Alignment system: Creatures

Postby svenskmand » 17 Jun 2010, 17:19

I like the Human and Undead creature lists, although I think we should make two creatures for each class, but I think it is a fine start.

Regarding the alignment system I would still say that the simplex-system is the one we shall use as it is a superior system as opposed to the hypercube system. Regarding axis labels my proposal is this, but they are very open for debate:
* Greedy - Charitable
* Chaotic - Orderly
* Violent - Peaceful
* Passionate - Apathetic
* Indecent - Decent
* Unjust - Just

I also think we should use the same alignment system for both keepers and the creatures. Here the creatures should have a hyperball associated, and a creature is attracted to a keeper if the keepers alignment point lies in the creatures hyperball, and the probability that the creature will join is inverse proportional to the distance between the center of the hyperball and the keepers alignment point.
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Re: Factional Alignment system: Creatures

Postby Keldaryth » 17 Jun 2010, 17:25

This is an example list only for the purposes of demonstration, and frankly as mentioned elsewhere I think a 12 point system is too cumbersome from a design perspective. Also Indecent/Decent and Unjust/Just are societally subjective and ambiguous and cannot be applied across the board to all of our current factions, let alone future factions, which is why I simplified it down to 3 axes. In any case, I suggest waiting until the examples are up before letting the debate rage. For the purposes of this discussion (and for the initial game testing) it's pointless implementing a wide range of creatures. I'd rather look at getting the core game mechanics and gameplay working before we add extras - once again, these lists are simply a cohesive starting point that should provide for an interesting amount of interactions.
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Re: Factional Alignment system: Creatures

Postby svenskmand » 17 Jun 2010, 17:35

Who said anything about a 12 point system? What do you mean?

Also you axes are as subjective as mine. Take for example lawful/chaos, it is only up to the observer to judge if things are chaotic, hence a subjective term. It is clearly the same with good and evil, no one would ever perceive them self as being evil. It is again the same with egotism, no one would perceive themselves as egoistic, it is inherently a subjective term, as only external observers can label people as egoistic.
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Re: Factional Alignment system: Creatures

Postby Keldaryth » 17 Jun 2010, 18:25

I mean your six axes - twelve points on the axes.

Egotism/Altruism is a measure of where an individual places relative needs of individuals in importance. An egotistical person will place his needs and wants above those of others and vice versa. This is a measurable characteristic, although the extent to where a person would lie along the continuum is obviously subject to debate. However, as a basic function it is applicable across all individuals regardless of which society they come from or the societal norms of that society. They are a slightly broader version of your greed/generosity axis.

Good and Evil are perhaps better looked at in an ethical form - good strives to limit suffering, evil does not. Similarly, I would disagree that people cannot perceive themselves as being evil or bad. Otherwise there would be no feelings of guilt. Of course, the most 'evil' people are those who recognise themselves as evil and revel in it - although there is something to be said for societal evil by the masses (such as Nazi Germany where ordinary people did horrendous things). From this perspective, good/evil are quantifiable, albeit roughly, as with everything else in this fuzzy area.

It is for this latter reason that miners, for instance, have been given a GE coefficient of 0.2 - they will proclaim that they want a good society, but will still live work and participate in an evil one if they find themselves there or if that's the only way to make a living.
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Re: Factional Alignment system: Creatures

Postby svenskmand » 17 Jun 2010, 18:51

Now you say that you can argue that a person/creature is good/evil based on ethics, but ethics is also very dependent on the culture and society, hence again a subjective term. You example with the nazis is a good one to prove my point: the nazis did not see them self as evil, they saw them self as people making a better world, although almost all over people in the world think that what the nazis did is some of the most sinister crimes every committed by the human kind. So you argument that my axes are subjective does not hold, as they are as subjective as you axes are. Also I do not see a problem with the axes having subjective labels, it is after all us (the developers) that assign the alignment points to each creature, rooms, traps and so on, so it is our subjective opinion about each label that will determine where the points lie, and not the fictional characters in our story that will decide.

By the way can you see the differences between the hypercube- and simplex-system? Any comments?
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Re: Factional Alignment system: Creatures

Postby Keldaryth » 17 Jun 2010, 19:30

The nazis built a better world by increasing the suffering felt by others. To increase the standard of living for few they increased the suffering of others. This is 'evil'.

Granted, by this definition, a lot of corporate capitalist practice is evil, as is the majority of religious practice in the past, which built a community based around the rejection of 'otherness' and typically encouraged its members (and in many cases still does encourage its members) to inflict suffering on those that are 'other'. And yes, I consider that to be evil.

I would like to point you towards Peter Singers work on practical ethics as a basis for my arguments - he's a lot better at it than I am. I'll admit I'm still an omnivore, as I'm not completely convinced by his works on non-human animal ethics, but I do prefer to eat non-battery farmed meat and eggs. I personally know of several non battery farms that are keeping breeds of animals alive because of domestication, and I'm having issues with the notion of suffering from the point of an individual versus the survival of a species.

The 'subjectivity' of your axes is important if this gameplay element is going to be set before the players and the modders. If both sides see their cause as just, arbitrarily labelling one as just or unjust is us as developers passing a judgement on what we create, and if this is to be put before players, I would like to allow them to draw their own conclusions rather than forcing the view of one or more developers onto them with a sledgehammer, regardless of our own conclusions.

Would you mind continuing this debate on the Keepers/Faction thread? I'm trying to use this thread for an example of gameplay mechanics, not axes and labels?

Incidentally my initial thoughts on simplex - hypercube notions is that one is based on triangles and the other on cubes. To be perfectly honest given the mechanic I'm trying to use in this thread, I don't see it as being an issue, especially given the attribute of an alignment to the individual creature, not the faction.
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Re: Factional Alignment system: Creatures

Postby svenskmand » 17 Jun 2010, 19:39

Keldaryth {l Wrote}:The nazis built a better world by increasing the suffering felt by others. To increase the standard of living for few they increased the suffering of others. This is 'evil'.

I agree that it is evil, but the nazis did not think it was evil, that is my point.
Keldaryth {l Wrote}:The 'subjectivity' of your axes is important if this gameplay element is going to be set before the players and the modders. If both sides see their cause as just, arbitrarily labelling one as just or unjust is us as developers passing a judgement on what we create, and if this is to be put before players, I would like to allow them to draw their own conclusions rather than forcing the view of one or more developers onto them with a sledgehammer, regardless of our own conclusions.

But my point is -- as you also write youself -- that if it where up to each faction they would label themself as good, which would mean that all factions would have the exact same alignment in any system. It is the same with you labels as they are as subjective as mine.
Keldaryth {l Wrote}:Incidentally my initial thoughts on simplex - hypercube notions is that one is based on triangles and the other on cubes. To be perfectly honest given the mechanic I'm trying to use in this thread, I don't see it as being an issue, especially given the attribute of an alignment to the individual creature, not the faction.

Fine then you do not mind that we use the simplex-system as it is much more flexible :)
Keldaryth {l Wrote}:Would you mind continuing this debate on the Keepers/Faction thread? I'm trying to use this thread for an example of gameplay mechanics, not axes and labels?
faction.

Sure then make you next post in there and link back to this post to show that the discussion is a continuation of this.
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Re: Factional Alignment system: Creatures

Postby TheAncientGoat » 17 Jun 2010, 20:26

Woah, Keldaryth, thats some serious design you got there, I like what I'm seeing. Simple, well structured, to the point. And solid values to boot. +1 from my side :)
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Re: Factional Alignment system: Creatures

Postby Keldaryth » 17 Jun 2010, 20:33

Thanks AncientGoat - that's what I do though. If you want a moddable structure that gives a depth of gameplay... well... *shrug*

This seemed like the simplest solution. You might want to wait until you see the example interactions post though.
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Re: Factional Alignment system: Creatures

Postby svenskmand » 17 Jun 2010, 21:32

Keldaryth {l Wrote}:Each creature is then given an alignment rating both on the two axis (Lawful - Chaotic / Good - Evil) and three axis (Altruism - Egotism / Order - Chaos / Peace - Violence) scales. With debate still raging as to which scale to use, I'm going to put in both to look at interaction effects. Personally I prefer simpler, but I'm doing both so there's actually a system to debate with.
...
Each creature is then given 2 or 3 alignment coefficients for each of the alignment axes to show how well disposed they are towards the Keeper's alignment (as represented by his/her starting alignment modifiers, hired creature alignment mix and any alignment affecting rooms).

Why have you given each creature two points on the 2axes- and 3axes-systems?
Can you explain this again, I do not get the difference between them.
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Re: Factional Alignment system: Creatures

Postby Keldaryth » 17 Jun 2010, 21:55

svenskmand {l Wrote}:
Keldaryth {l Wrote}:Each creature is then given an alignment rating both on the two axis (Lawful - Chaotic / Good - Evil) and three axis (Altruism - Egotism / Order - Chaos / Peace - Violence) scales. With debate still raging as to which scale to use, I'm going to put in both to look at interaction effects. Personally I prefer simpler, but I'm doing both so there's actually a system to debate with.
...
Each creature is then given 2 or 3 alignment coefficients for each of the alignment axes to show how well disposed they are towards the Keeper's alignment (as represented by his/her starting alignment modifiers, hired creature alignment mix and any alignment affecting rooms).

Why have you given each creature two points on the 2axes- and 3axes-systems?
Can you explain this again, I do not get the difference between them.


The two axis and three axis systems are the systems I see as being potentially feasible for the faction/alignment mix. Two axis because of it's sheer simplicity, and three axis because it's a bit more refined but still simple enough to implement. The difference between them is one measures 'good and evil' ratings along with law/chaos whereas the other measures less subjective traits such as tendency towards altruism and egotism and peace or violence. They get one point per axis and the difference between them is largely going to come down to which system is preferred for defining a trait and its impact on the game mechanics - which I will have to write another day. I've been at this for about 6 hours now :p

Sorry I can't answer in more depth, I hope it will become clearer once I get the game mechanic examples up and running. In the end the creatures will only be using one alignment axis system, I'm simply doing both so we can compare their effects at the end.
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Re: Factional Alignment system: Creatures

Postby svenskmand » 17 Jun 2010, 22:06

This was not what I asked about. You have two systems 2axes and 3axes to have them as alternatives. But you assign each creature two points in each system, that is each creature gets two points in the 2axes systems and two points in the 3axes system, why do you do that?
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Re: Factional Alignment system: Creatures

Postby Keldaryth » 17 Jun 2010, 22:20

No, a creature is assigned 2 points on the 2 axis system and 3 on the three axis system:

Warrior
The Warrior is the basic soldier in the employ of Lord Darius and his generals.
Faction: Human 1

Alignment (2 Axis system):
Law/Chaos axis point: 0.8,
Good/Evil axis point: 0.4
Total axis points: 2

Alignment (3 Axis system):
Altruism/Egotism axis point: -0.6,
Order/Chaos axis point: 0.8
Peace/Violence axis point: -0.9
Total axis points: 3

If you are referring to the fact that some creatures have '0' as an axis point, this is because 0 is on the axis which ranges from -1 to 1. Mathematically a score of 0 indicates that the creature is 'neutral' on the axis.
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Re: Factional Alignment system: Creatures

Postby svenskmand » 17 Jun 2010, 23:08

Keldaryth {l Wrote}:Warrior
...
Alignment (2 Axis): LC 0.8, GE 0.4 (usually follows orders, but is really more in it for the money than a just cause).
Alignment (3 Axis): AE -0.6, OC 0.8, PV -0.9 (in it for the money, usually follows orders, violent)
...
2 Axis: LC 0.8, GE 0.8 (generally prefers to be around people who value structure as they do, and prefer to be fighting for a good cause)
3 Axis: AE: 0.6, OC 0.8, PV -0.1 (value altruism in others, prefer structure and tend to like people who see action as a solution, although they value peace highly).

Here you assign one point in the 2axis system, and one point in the 3axis system, then below you assign one more point in the 2axis system and one more point in the 3axis system. Why do you do that?

The first point in the 2axis system is in the above (0.8, 0.4) where the axes are LC x GE, it is not two points, please use standard mathematical terminology. The first point in the 3axis system is (-0.6,0.8,-0.9) where the axes are AE x OC x PV. Then you make a point (0.8,0.8) more in the 2axis system, and a point (0.6,0.8,-0.1) in the 3axis system, what are these for?

Keldaryth {l Wrote}:No, a creature is assigned 2 points on the 2 axis system and 3 on the three axis system.

Regarding you terminology then you assign "2 coordinates which constitute one point, in the 2 axis system, and 3 coordinates which constitute one point in the 3 axis system". That is how you would normally phrase it in words in a mathematical setting, you where mixing the term coordinates with the term points.
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Re: Factional Alignment system: Creatures

Postby Keldaryth » 18 Jun 2010, 03:51

No, the second set you mention are not points on the axis. They are mathematical coefficients that will be used to determine the creature's perception of the player's alignment variables.

In this sense I am looking at two things: the first set (the axis points and faction points) represent what the creature is and how it behaves.

The set of coefficients describe what sort of society (as defined by player's faction and alignment mix) the creature likes to be in.

What a creature is/does can be very different to the society it wants to live in. For example: most humans want to live in a highly altruistic society while not being very altruistic themselves. This is true of our own society, where we typically mean - "I want to live in a society that is more altruistic, preferably towards me and preferably without me having to be more altruistic."

Similarly while a Rogue is indifferent between violent and non-violent means when it comes to fulfilling his or her goals (thus an axis point of 0), the rogue has a peace/violence coefficient of 0.6 because a rogue prefers to operate in a more peaceful society where they can get away with more.

Are more interesting example is the maiden, who is not altruistic at all, being fairly self centred (-0.8 axis point) but who highly values altruism (coefficient of 0.9). This means that maidens are attracted to altruistic societies (such as those with lots of knights), but by joining those societies they make the society in general less altruistic, which makes them less appealing for further maidens (and for that matter, further knights) to join.

The maths will be explained more when I get to the game mechanics examples.
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Re: Factional Alignment system: Creatures

Postby Keldaryth » 18 Jun 2010, 08:03

svenskmand {l Wrote}:Regarding you terminology then you assign "2 coordinates which constitute one point, in the 2 axis system, and 3 coordinates which constitute one point in the 3 axis system". That is how you would normally phrase it in words in a mathematical setting, you where mixing the term coordinates with the term points.


I stand corrected :p

Do you understand what I'm doing though?
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Re: Factional Alignment system: Creatures

Postby svenskmand » 18 Jun 2010, 12:03

Well more or less. One thing though you now have 2 points in the same alignment system, how should they influence each other, and interact with the players alignment?
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