Music for Scotland

[GeekPenguinBR]

Good. Now, if you wish this, you (or OzoneOne) can insert the grace notes in both regions (high notes and low notes), like the pipers does. This will be a good improvement in the beautiful song already composed , for sure.

[GunChleoc]

What do you mean with both regions? I have created a score like a piper would play, with doublings, birls, throws on D and a grip at the end. They are all pretty simple gracenote patterns, but anything more complicated would not fit the style of the tune.

[GeekPenguinBR]

What do you mean with both regions?

I mean treble and bass regions - high and low notes - like the MIDI sample (a song based on "Scotland the Brave") that I posted before. You are Scottish, so you know very well that bagpipes always have 2 simultaneous sounds: 1. the leading voice played with high notes and it gracenotes, thatis the melody; and ]2.the low notes (that I call residual sound) that remains the same while the melody is being played.

I know a little about bagpipes for two reasons: 1. I like it; and, 2.I served in the Brazilian navy. My dad was a mariner and the Brazilian Marine Corps' band has a lot of bagpipes since ever. Look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_TeWPbN-64
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9JB_HULnVQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKOxZhDkE-E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaVZb5HpAUw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb9JbHUnlPY

See the musical score below and hear my sample again to understand what Imean for "residual low note". Look:

[0zone0ne]

So basically what you're saying is that the melody is played simultaneously on two octaves?

[GeekPenguinBR]

Not exactly because the notes are not the same, so it's not a note played in 2 octaves. You hear the melody with many different notes while only one low note remains and remains with the grace notes played with the breathe, like your hear in my sample. In other words: they play always a low note while playing the melody and the low notes are repetitively played with gracenotes everytime the piper breathe.

[GeekPenguinBR]

The comment is above.

[GunChleoc]

Just to make sure verybody understands how the Great Highland Bagpipe works, it consists of 4 instruments:

• 1 bass drone, giving a low constant tone. No gracenotes possible, because the drone is behind your back.
• 2 tenor drones, giving a constant tone on the chanter's basic note. No gracenotes possible, because the drones are behind your back. There are 2 of them, because 1 wouldn't be loud enough. On the smallpipes, we would have 2 different notes here, but on the Great Highland Bagpipe, they are always tuned in unison.
• The chanter, which you use to play the melody and the gracenotes.

What you can do when you have more than one piper playing is to split the pipers into 2 groups so you can have 2 different melodies played at the same time, so some sections sound as if they were playing in chords. I guess this is what you're getting at? You can't really go treble and bass, because the range of the chanter is 1 octave + 1 note.

BTW how often a piper breathes has nothing whatsoever to do with the music the pipe produces - air pressure on the reeds has to be absolutely constant all the time, otherwise the pipes will detune at once - this will sound pretty much like torturing a cat This is one of the things that makes the pipes a very difficult instrument to play.

[0zone0ne]

Ok, I think I'm done with the bagpipes. Do they sound good to you?
(This version of the music isn't mixed properly, doesn't loop, and I haven't mastered it so it's really quiet.)

celtic_test3.ogg

(1.06 MiB) Downloaded 302 times

Also, I decided to pan the drones and the chanter in different directions in the end, as it seems like a common thing to do with bagpipes in electronic music.
Example:

youtu.be/sTpzuSiht3o

[GeekPenguinBR]

I liked the part with bag pipes as leading voice, but, IMHO, the low notes should be stronger (most people tends to pay attention to the high notes instead the rest). I'm not either a Scottish or a specialist in bag pipes, but, as said before, I have some time hearing bag pipes. In other words, I don't know how they are played, but I know how they should sound.

The only thing I didn't like much is the part between 00:00:26 and 00:00:39. I don't know what voice is doing that (sounds like a mandolin), but, for my taste, that voice should be lower, in a "second plane". But, as you said, the track is not already mixed , at all. So, this is not a problem.

I think that the song is better with the improvements of bag pipes and - in my opinion - will be even better if you reinforce the low notes and the grace notes of the bag pipes. I don't know what software you use to create the scores. I use different softwares in function of their resources according to every different project but, in this case (to create grace notes simulating bag pipes) I use Tuxguitar, so I advise you to use TuxGuitar for this track (bagpipe) apart and mix it after.

I used Tuxguitar in my sample because it allow me to set the exact strenght, the duration and the execution of the gracenotes. As shown bellow, the grace note's duration is set to semiquaver, while the expression is set to mezzo piano and the execution is set to hammer on. The leading voice as well the low notes are played in mezzo piano , but, to reinforce the low notes, I could set them as "f" (forte). This is not the case because there's no other instruments playing, but you should consider this option in "Celtic" song, due the presence of other voices.

This is not a tutorial. I'm not saying that this is perfect (this is a quick attempt to write a famous song sounding like bagpipes); much less I'm trying to teach you "how to simulate perfectly a bag pipe", but this is how I found the solution for the problem how to play Amazing Grace as MIDI, sounding convincingly like a "real" bag pipe. You may find a better and even closer execution trying other adjustments. You can change it all chosing other points to insert the grace notes, changing the expression, changing the point where the "piper" breathes, etc.

[0zone0ne]

Ok, I made the drones louder, and changed the grace notes. I tried making the grace notes louder, like you suggested, but it messed up the balancing of the tracks. So instead I lengthened the grace notes from a 1/32 note to a 1/16th triplet and I think they are more noticeable now. Is this what you meant by reinforcing them?
(Again, I haven't compressed this at all so it's really quiet.)

celtic_test4.ogg

(1.06 MiB) Downloaded 306 times

I'm going to try rearranging the bagpipes in TuxGuitar but I'm not sure how well it will work.

EDIT:
TuxGuitar just tells me I need to install Java, then it installs Java for me, and then it says I need to install Java again. This happens forever. I simply can't be bothered with this kind of thing, so no TuxGuitar for me.

[GeekPenguinBR]

Hi!

I think that it's better now, but still quiet compared to the other instruments, since it is not mixed yet. About the TuxGuitar: well, I never seen this before, but I think that a simple restart can solve this.

Well, changing the duration is good but, due to the presence of other instruments, I think that you should change the dynamics of the low note for a upper level, eg. from piano to mezzo piano or from mezzo piano to forte but a level upper compared to the high notes played by the bag pipe.

Now, a suggestion: the stretch from 00:00:26 to 00:00:39 has not a clear melody, but basically an accompaniment by synthesizers. We know that they have not the intention to create a very specific cultural profile for the track, but why not insert a melody played by the bag pipes from 00:0026 to 00:0045? This will make the song sounds even more Scottish and even better than now. What's your opinion?

[0zone0ne]

but still quiet compared to the other instruments, since it is not mixed yet.

That's actually a bit worrying since I've mixed it since last time and I thought the bagpipes were the right volume...

due to the presence of other instruments, I think that you should change the dynamics of the low note for a upper level, eg. from piano to mezzo piano or from mezzo piano to forte but a level upper compared to the high notes played by the bag pipe.

I'm unclear. What do you mean by low notes and high notes? Are you referring to the drones and the chanter, or something else entirely?

Now, a suggestion: the stretch from 00:00:26 to 00:00:39 has not a clear melody, but basically an accompaniment by synthesizers. We know that they have not the intention to create a very specific cultural profile for the track, but why not insert a melody played by the bag pipes from 00:0026 to 00:0045? This will make the song sounds even more Scottish and even better than now. What's your opinion?

I'm sorry but I disagree. It's important to have a few parts of the music with a more vague melody. Often I include a short section that is just the accompaniment and no melody. I'm sure that this was a conscious decision made by Krobonil when he composed the song.
Also, I'm a bit worried that you heard synthesisers in there. Playing the melody from 00:26 to 00:33 are some strings (violins + violas) and a dulcimer, and from 00:33 to 00:40 the dulcimer is replaced by an electric guitar. You're not meant to hear any synthesisers...

[GeekPenguinBR]

but still quiet compared to the other instruments, since it is not mixed yet.
That's actually a bit worrying since I've mixed it since last time and I thought the bagpipes were the right volume...

Well, sometimes I export track by track (every MIDI voice played) as .wav and this makes the mixing easier.

I'm unclear. What do you mean by low notes and high notes? Are you referring to the drones and the chanter, or something else entirely?

Yes, the drone (low notes) and the chanter (hig notes).

I'm sorry but I disagree. It's important to have a few parts of the music with a more vague melody... I'm sure that this was a conscious decision made by Krobonil when he composed the song.

Ok. It's his song.

Also, I'm a bit worried that you heard synthesisers in there. Playing the melody from 00:26 to 00:33 are some strings (violins + violas) and a dulcimer...

Yes. Using a headphone I hear the difference now.

[0zone0ne]

I think that you should change the dynamics of the low note for a upper level, eg. from piano to mezzo piano or from mezzo piano to forte

I'm not sure what other music sequencers you use, but MIDI doesn't actually work that way. Each note has a velocity between 0 and 127, this determines how hard the note is being pressed, like a piano key. I have everything turned up to 127 around 90% of the time.

You want the drones to be louder, right? I have the chanter and the drones on different tracks, so really it's just a matter of getting the mixing right, since they are both on full velocity. The drones aren't doing a melody, chords, or anything relatively important, they're only filling up texture, so I figured they should be somewhere in the "back" of the music, volume-wise. What you're saying is that they should be more upfront, like the main melodies, but that means that when the drones stop and the second section starts (with the fiddle), there is a large drop in overall volume. I need to try to get them as loud as possible while keeping them out of the "first plane" of instruments.

[GeekPenguinBR]

I'm not sure what other music sequencers you use, but MIDI doesn't actually work that way. Each note has a velocity between 0 and 127, this determines how hard the note is being pressed, like a piano key.

Yes, I know, but It's the same thing. Midi controllers works with velocity while softwares works with strenght or the realtive loudness. Both export MIDI files that can be played as tracks with MIDI voices. The minimum value of velocity corresponds to the minimum loudness (ppp), while the maximum (127) correspond to very strong notes played as fff (fortissimo). When using Audacity, Acid Music or another, the MIDI track will be played the same way, no matter if you had inserted notes using velocity as parameter or if you inserted notes using the dynamics (from pianissimo to fortissimo) of some software. Every note is played by your MIDI software according to a sheet with different grades of speed and their equivalent level of relative loudness. Look: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamics_(music)#mediaviewer/File:Dynamic%27s_Note_Velocity.svg

As said before, I use Tuxguitar or Musescore. On Tuxguitar, I insert every note using the mouse. On Musescore, I insert notes using my MIDI controller keyboard. The MIDI controller features the velocity-sensitive touch. At maximum speed (127) the controller recognizes the note as very strong (fff). At almost zero the controller recognizes the note as very quiet (ppp), almost mute.

When using a software instead a MIDI controller keyboard occurs the contrary: you chose the realitive loudness (ppp, pp, p, mp, mf, f, ff and fff) for every note and the sotware generates a MIDI file with the respective velocity for each note.Playing a midi controller keyboard that features the velocity-sensitive touch on an expensive software that can recognize this feature, you play like you play a piano and the keyboard (as well the proper software) recognizes the velocity and turns it in a correspondent loudness level and generates a MIDI file with the notes and it respective velocities.

You want the drones to be louder, right? I have the chanter and the drones on different tracks, so really it's just a matter of getting the mixing right, since they are both on full velocity. The drones aren't doing a melody, chords, or anything relatively important, they're only filling up texture, so I figured they should be somewhere in the "back" of the music, volume-wise. What you're saying is that they should be more upfront, like the main melodies, but that means that when the drones stop and the second section starts (with the fiddle), there is a large drop in overall volume. I need to try to get them as loud as possible while keeping them out of the "first
plane" of instruments.

Yes. That's the point to manage. If you use a software like Tuxguitar or Musescore, you can set the level of relative loudness clicking on the icons with the respective dynamic indications: ppp, pp, p, mp. mf, f, ff and fff.

Playing a not much expensive keyboard, you set the curve of velocity prior and change the relative loudness after, using your prefered software. I use my Korg controller and Musescore together. Musescore recognizes the notes I play, but not the velocity. So, I set each note using the menu. Tuxguitar doesn't allow me to insert notes using the controller, but I quickly insert each note and set it loudness level using the respective icon. In both cases, I can set the chant as f and the drones are ff, a level above in therms of loudness, if this is the case. This allow us to hear the chant perfectly (because we tend to pay attention to the high frequencies) as well allow us tho hear the drones, because the notes are louder than the chant itself, but nobody notice this.

You can do the same if you mix the chant and the drones on Audacity making the drone a bit louder. Nobody will realize the difference if you make a good adjustment, but you must hear the other instruments too. If not, can happen what you described above: a large drop in overall volume.

I did this in my experimental song "Misterious House". Notes in the same acord have different level of relative loudness. The bass is a bit louder (stronger) as I said: eg. mf and f. After all, I mixed all the tracks on Audacity, but the bassline was mixed a bit louder compared to organs, guitar etc.

[Arthur]

I have everything turned up to 127 around 90% of the time.

To get things more natural and organic, it's nice to rather have a random/semi-random value between 100-127, but I know this may be more work and I haven't used to bother with it myself so I should probably listen to my own advice first.

[GeekPenguinBR]

To get things more natural and organic, it's nice to rather have a random/semi-random value between 100-127, but I know this may be more work...

Yes, of course, but he needs do this and the reason is simple: not all MIDI voices have the same level of loudness; Hammond Organ, Harmonica are very loud and Syn Brass 1 is even louder, while Goblins sounds very quiet. If we turn all 127 or fff, we will have an unbalanced audio, that is hard to fix after when working on the mixed tracks.That's why he is finding difficult to equalize the loudness, because all the voices were played and recorded at the maximum level of loudness but not all have the same level of loudness.

Following Arthur's advise, I think that the correct should be turn a quiet voice like Goblins on 127 (or fff) and turn Syn Brass 1 around 100 (maybe f or mf) to balance or you have an unfair competition to get the attention of the listeners. That's why you hear trumpets quieter than an acoustic guitar when you hear a CD with many instruments.

It's like asking 10 guys of different height and strength "Please, hold this board on the top of your heads to balance; if not,the bomb will fall and kill you all", then, the 7 ft giant in the right and the dwarf in the left, as well the guys 5ft tall does what we asked them to do and everyone explodes beacuse it's impossible to get the correct balance.

[GunChleoc]

I need to listen to these properly with headphones, but from what my crappy laptop speakers tell me, I think I like version 3 better than version 4. In version 4, the gracenotes are too slow. I spent quite some time on my MID file to get the timing of the gracenotes right, also the relative mixing of the drones volume was as natural as I could make it. Of course, things sound differently in a full mix, and I didn't use any of the backing track while composing it.

Regarding volume, the electric guitar is a lot louder than the bagpipe, maybe that's the problem? Here's an example how you can mix bagpipes and electric guitar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fRxbzeSbF8. These are electrontc bagpipes without drones, just a wooden chanter used as a MIDI controller.

Regarding the slow part, if you want to add to it at all, I think a Celtic harp (Clàrsach) might be appropriate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3XXOSBjetE

[GunChleoc]

I think this would jar - either we make all instruments completely artificial (including the electric guitar, which sounds quite natural), or we try to give them all a pretty natural playing style.

[0zone0ne]

Thank you for all of your feedback, and I've considered all of it... I will integrate as many of this discussion's ideas as I can.
I will leave the bagpipes with the short grace notes. They won't sound 100% realistic but I need to acknowledge the way they are played in real life, as I do with the other instruments and in the other songs.

And about sounding authentic, well.. how many other songs in the game sound completely realistic? The other songs I've done don't sound very realistic either.

@Krobonil
I can put a few less quantized notes in the whistle at the end. But I am curious about the reason for this?

[GunChleoc]

In the end, you and Krobonil will have to like the result, because it is your song

[Auria]

Thank you for all of your feedback, and I've considered all of it... I will integrate as many of this discussion's ideas as I can.
I will leave the bagpipes with the short grace notes. They won't sound 100% realistic but I need to acknowledge the way they are played in real life, as I do with the other instruments and in the other songs.

And about sounding authentic, well.. how many other songs in the game sound completely realistic? The other songs I've done don't sound very realistic either.

@Krobonil
I can put a few less quantized notes in the whistle at the end. But I am curious about the reason for this?

The amount of different ideas one can receive on a forum can be a little overwhelming, in the end I hope you Krobonil can find something that will please you

I might also add that sounding like realistic instruments is not really a priority for us, so where possible and advantageous why not, but no need to "bend" the songs into realism where it doesn't work

[0zone0ne]

Final version:

celtic.ogg

(1003.25 KiB) Downloaded 273 times

celtic_fast.ogg

Final lap version (+10 BPM, alternate loop)

(939.3 KiB) Downloaded 269 times

Lossless files:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fxubi2uipbj0c43/AACaGJ5kb0O39SDD8qSAffhHa?dl=0
(WAV, 24-bit, 44100 Hz)

MP3 version (download is 320kbps):
https://soundcloud.com/0zone0ne/supertuxkart-scotland

Keep in mind that "celtic" is only the filename that states the theme, not the actual title of the music.


Here's an updated version of the Cocoa Temple (Final Lap) music. I moved the intro so the song begins on the melody.

temple_fast.ogg

Alternate loop

(985.66 KiB) Downloaded 218 times

Lossless:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/cg59yvlz9374spl/AABu1lmY-ayLSgEJ3Qsz-B5ia?dl=0 (only the fast version needs updating)


I'd also like to ask, if it isn't a problem, that you could increase to volume of the Cocoa Temple and Grand Paradiso Island music in-game? I designed the music to weave in and out of the game's sound effects as it changed dynamics, but this only works if the music is at the same volume as the sound effects. Right now, to me at least, the tracks seem eerie because the music is so quiet that it doesn't fit anymore.

@Krobonil
I removed most of the chanter grace notes in the Scotland music. I carefully picked grace notes that I think contribute to shaping the melody rather than just decorating it, and I left those in. This includes the first one (like you suggested) and another in the second phrase. I hope this is ok.

[Auria]

Hi,

thanks a lot, I like the song a lot! I have added the song to our repository, and used it in Scotland track. It's perhaps too late for beta 2, but it will appear in the release after that.

Regarding your request about the volume, I may ask for more opinions; as a musician I totally understand you would be paying attention to the music, but as a game designer it is also very important that the music should not drown the sound effects (the sound effects need to remain clearly audible over the music, this is the case in every game).

[GunChleoc]

I like it