The Temple: an arena inspired by samuncle's next-gen track

[Anon]

Hello everyone.

I've made an arena based off of the concept of and using the library objects from samuncle's next-gen track, chocolate.

You can download it here.

To install it, put the "temple" folder into one of your tracks folders and put the contents of the "assets" folder into "stk-assets/library/".

Once installed, it can be found in the "Custom" tab of Supertuxkart's arena selection screen.

Note that you will need a relatively new build of the game for it to work. I'd say to stick with one made in the last week or so.


Known Issues:

Inside of temple is too dark, not lit by lava
-hard to fix as lights don't seem to be especially reliable

Karts don't get rescued at the flood
-apparently caused by a bug in the game that makes it so karts only get pushed up by objects supposed to reset them, might be fixed in newest commits

Water is black
-not sure what causes this, works fine on the machine I made the track with

Custom library objects don't show
-just noticed this now, not sure when this started happening. Might be due to enabling "Enable Instancing" in object libraries.


One last thing. Once I release the source file, it would be great for someone to take a look at how the water is done in this track and build on it. I feel like there's probably a really good way of doing realistic water (with fake specular reflections) waiting to be developed from this track.

[Anon]

youtu.be/5y7-gBrgvs8

[XGhost]

Woah, this looks pretty nice!!!
Very good arena, congratulations!

[vlj]

What do you mean by "lights are not reliable" ?
These are (unshadowed) classic point lights with an energy and a distance (acting as a fade off).
For your use case however I would prefer an area light, although they are not implemented.

[Anon]

@XGhost: Thanks!

@vlj: I'm not sure exactly what was going on, but in versions of the track where I had more lights than now, it seemed like only the ones closest to the kart would actually do anything.

[Ludsky]

Wonderful ^^

It's really difficult to wait next verison of STK :s

[GeekPenguinBR]

Nice. It looks great but, do the kart floats?

[Anon]

@Ludsky: I should probably clarify that this isn't an official track. I made it with the goal of getting it into the game, but it's up to the developers to decide whether it's good enough. (Personally, I think it is, but I'm obviously heavily biased).


@GeekPenguinBR: No, the plan is to have them get rescued if they enter the water after 2:00. I've actually already implemented it, but it doesn't work because of what I assume is a bug in the game. I've opened an issue here, if you want to know more.

The nice thing about having the place flooded is that it makes the arena more "alive". In every other arena, the layout of the track itself never changes. I think it would be cool if every arena had some dynamic or unique parts, which is why I made the flood.

More specifically, I think the benefit of the flood to the gameplay in this arena is that it widens its appeal to a greater range of players. Newer players can spend most of their battles driving in the easy, straight, and open ring around the temple, but experienced players won't get bored because they'll eventually get forced into the more challenging interior of the temple. In theory, at least.

[GeekPenguinBR]

Ok. (By the way, I misspelled: "do" instead "does". My bad.). Flooding is a good change in the game's dynamics. Reminds me Supertux.

[samuncle]

Hello

So after playing and testing your arena I'm ready to write my conclusion . Sorry for the delay but I wanted to make an in depth review. I hope you will read the complete post otherwise I have lost my time .

Before beginning, don't take it bad. The objective is to improve our skills not to make harsh critics. I want to congrats you because you made a "next-gen" track without any tutorial nor documentation about how to use the new engine, so it's a good achievement in my opinion. We are planning to write a documentation and or making video tutorial about how to use the new engine.

So let's review

The inside of the pyramid is kinda cool, with the platforms and wooden bridges.
The lava is a great addition. I will probably add it into my own pyramid.
I like the idea of the water outside that will flow . It's cool to have dynamic tracks/arenas. It's one of the objective of the next gen tracks.
The vegetation outside is cool. However there is one part where I think you can reduce a bit (just outside the ramp). I suggest to find another way to avoid an empty look when we exit the pyramid
You have made your own objects kudos

I think you should add more variety. Currently the track is perfectly symmetrical with 0 variation . It's kinda boring. Let me explain.
You have the gameplay symmetry and the visual symmetry. A track can be one of them, or both or none.


(a symmetrical arena in halo)

The map from above. (you can look on youtube. The map is named avalanche)

The visual symmetry is: the track looks symmetrical
The gameplay symmetry is: the area accessible to the player part is symmetrical. You can imagine a track with the theme Haven & Hell, that will be perfectly symmetrical game play side (same paths, same road, same plateforms) but with radically different colors and design. It's like the ying and yang. They are similar in shape but have different colors.
For instance in your case Both entrance can be different, with one having being a bit destroyed or one is an entrance made by robbers trying to theft the treasure inside.
You can even imagine an egyptian side and an aztec side connected with magical inter dimensional portal :P. (well maybe not but you get the point .

In the outside part, you can add a village or an anteroom in one side and a jungle at the other.
Here is an example of what I'm talking about. It's Egyptian but I'm pretty sure aztec have done similar things.

The accessible road/path to the player can be the same but with different style it will break the monotony.

I haven't tested during an arena round but I think the outside is quite disconnected from the inside. I suggest to add additional jump exit that can be a ramp where you can go outside but not return inside. That would be interesting gameplay wise.

The water flowing is cool . But you should give to player a way to survive and to tell him when it will happen. Currently there is no way to know when the flood will strike. You can imagine an alarm, or giant tube poring water since it's an heavy flood. I have added locks in chocolate.


The water can flow into a small pond and then into the track. So the player will know exactly when it might happen. It can also be a sign or an alarm with a light turning on red when there is a danger.

If you say that it's not aztec I totally agree . You should transform it into something aztec. I don't know how but it's part of the creative process. You can pick something very modern and make it integrated into the theme of your track. Take for example my starting line.

It's modern, it's animated, it has a fancy text, a moving background etc. But it's style integrated with the general theme of the track. And the same idea applies to the water locks. Yes water locks are modern but in my case I used something that might be made by Aztec.

Since it's during probably a storm (with the flood) you should add a more appropriate skybox with an epic background and let's say a giant tornado. So a flood during an event like that is probable and the player won't be surprised.

An animated tornado (not changing the position, just clouds rotating) would be awesome .

You can also add things flying, like leaves, etc. Increase the speed of the wind (maybe it's not possible with the engine. If it's not, we will make sure it's possible .

That would be amazing. Imagine going outside the arena and watching this huge storm .

Also if you put a village you can put poster of the government (the country is val verde) warning about an upcoming storm, and stuff like that. Just watch what's happening during a hurricane to have examples.

You can imagine warning like that from the VVAA, the Val verde atmospheric administration

Since it's night time, there is not enough light . The playing area should be clearly visible. The current engine enable only lights near the player. You should increase their radius and limit their number.
The inside pyramid should have a different color palette compared to the outside. It should be bright and warm. Outside it should be cold and dark.
At the outside you should add lanterns or bamboo torches to light the road.

Also the big trees aren't used IMHO at their full glory. You can use them to make a forest roof. They are kinda cool to do that. You should also add a sun (a moon in this case). The moon can be hidden behind clouds but you will get a nice shadow and light effect.

The landscape is also a bit boring. Currently it's only a square. You should make a mountain in one side, a canyon in another side and make something that is a bit more varied.

Also, try to be careful with performances. Currently it runs at 50 FPS on my computer (which is quite powerful). By comparison chocolate that is way bigger run at ~55 FPS on the same computer. So you have to consider making some optimizations to avoid that.

I'm sure at 100% that you can add all those extra details and still have descent performances . Look how chocolate is built. It's a good way to learn. For instance the grass is only a very very low poly ribbon near the player. There is also mountains to avoid using costly stuff like palm trees, 6 big trees near the player provide sufficient shadows + a good vegetation density with a minimal amount of polygons).

Don't give up

Sam

[Anon]

Hi samuncle.

After reading your post a couple of times, I've come up with a list of changes to make for v2 of the track.

{l Code}: {l Select All Code}

-increased variety in design
   -back door made to look blasted through
   -rear ramp replaced with wood
   -rope ladder going up rear cliff
   -terrain ring around temple limited to rear half, or encircling village
   -front decorations replaced with village
      -wooden huts near road
      -stone houses on raised mountain in front of temple
      -splatting to create worn out roads leading between houses?

-improved lighting
   -streetlamps around road
   -fixed interior lighting (lava glow)

-improved flood
   -animated lightning felling trees as marker for 30 seconds till flood
      -on road or not?
   -wooden billboards saying "<cloud w/ rain & lightning> = <temple underwater>"
   -inca boats carrried from village storehouse to road by flood (finishing touch)

-tweaks and optimization
   -olmecs removed, as functionally obsoleted by village
   -quetzalcoatls removed, didn't contribute much to appearance, only poly-count
   -fog
   -solid grass patches replaced with lopoly grass
   -palm trees around road removed, higher density of lopoly trees
      -partially or fully?
      -63000 tris

Thanks for posting such a detailed review with lots of great ideas.

[samuncle]

I'm glad it was helpful for you . I have some little suggestion to your list.

-splatting to create worn out roads leading between houses?
Splatting is currently a bit problematic. It's not supported with normal mapping etc. So for the moment we don't use it

-streetlamps around road
I made recently a bamboo torch that might just work for the jungle part.

-animated lightning felling trees as marker for 30 seconds till flood
-wooden billboards saying "<cloud w/ rain & lightning> = <temple underwater>"
I would say, lightning is great but maybe the player won't make the link. I would probably use many huge drain (of course it should be aztec style) and when the drain start poring water, very quickly after that the water start to flood on the road. You can keep the warning poster and put it near these drains . Also if you do them, they will be useful for chocolate, I will probably put them in the water pond near the locks.

-inca boats carrried from village storehouse to road by flood (finishing touch)
I just made a reed boat for chocolate. Inspired by boats made in a Peruvian region.


-olmecs removed, as functionally obsoleted by village
-quetzalcoatls removed, didn't contribute much to appearance, only poly-count
I'm a bit worried . Where are they ? I can't find them :'(. I tried to visit everything in your map.

-solid grass patches replaced with lopoly grass
You can use a "ribbon" like I did in chocolate. It works pretty well.

-palm trees around road removed, higher density of lopoly trees
-partially or fully?
-63000 tris
I think you should keep them. If I remember me right, there isn't a huge number.

I'm so enthusiast with your arena that I want to help you . I think having a huge huricaine in the sky, will make it quite epic and unique compared to other tracks. I'm trying to add unique touch like that in every track.

Let's be honest, the objective is to include this arena in the core game . So if you make all these improvement, I will personally make the hurricane as a gift to help you . I already made a very quick test in chocolate to see how it might look.

[samuncle]

also (sorry for one more post ^^, but i'm inspired by your arena).

I suggest to make a very clear area where the water will flood. So it's easier to control (since flooding the village would be complex.

If the flooding is in a limited area, you can add nice details like object starting floating.

And i don't know how much time an arena game can last, but you should make a cycle.
No water (~1min)
Drain lights up with torches or something like that
Water start to pore (you can use particles, at the exit of the drain)
Water level rises
Reset level rises (so you are reseted only when the water start to have a very high level)
Water (let say, 20 sec)
then the same cycle but reversed
etc

[Anon]

Splatting is currently a bit problematic. It's not supported with normal mapping etc. So for the moment we don't use it

Okay then.

I would say, lightning is great but maybe the player won't make the link. I would probably use many huge drain (of course it should be aztec style) and when the drain start poring water, very quickly after that the water start to flood on the road. You can keep the warning poster and put it near these drains . Also if you do them, they will be useful for chocolate, I will probably put them in the water pond near the locks.

I'm not sure what you mean by drain. Something like a giant pipe, or a grate? If i did do water spilling out from a high point, it could be extremely difficult to get the flow animated correctly. Right now the water is just a rising plane with varying heights to simulate the spread of water (so that some parts of the water go above the surface first). It's pretty simple, which might be a large part of why it looks respectable.

I just made a reed boat for chocolate. Inspired by boats made in a Peruvian region.

I know (I saw it in chocolate). That's what I was thinking of.

I'm a bit worried . Where are they ? I can't find them :'(. I tried to visit everything in your map.

Sorry, I probably should have made clearer that they don't actually show in the current version. I think enabling instancing broke them.

I think you should keep them. If I remember me right, there isn't a huge number.

The palm trees lining the road make up 63,000 tris. To put that into perspective, the entire arena is less than 250,000 (probably less than even 150,000). I might keep a few, but It would probably be better to have a higher number of lo-poly trees in the background than a ton of high-poly ones right beside the road. It might give more of a wild "jungle" feel too.

I'm so enthusiast with your arena that I want to help you . I think having a huge huricaine in the sky, will make it quite epic and unique compared to other tracks. I'm trying to add unique touch like that in every track.

Let's be honest, the objective is to include this arena in the core game . So if you make all these improvement, I will personally make the hurricane as a gift to help you . I already made a very quick test in chocolate to see how it might look.

There is so much potential for something awesome here. I can already imagine that thing moving around the arena, with trees and objects from the village swirling around in it, occasionally poking out.

And i don't know how much time an arena game can last, but you should make a cycle.

A cycle is an interesting idea. Could make for more fun in games that last longer.

[Anon]

Alright, I think I'm done version two of the track. I've uploaded it here.


Why I left out some changes:

Limiting the terrain ring to half its current span:
I couldn't come up with a way to contain the water without using the terrain ring, and my original idea of a mountain would have been shorter than the terrain ring and thus looked weird. Also, leaving it in made the waterfall effect possible.

Stone houses on raised mountain:
I couldn't think of a good way to put the houses on mountains without making their foundations thicker, or a style for the mountain that would fit with the current theme and terrain ring.

Animated lightning felling trees:
This would have messed up the new cyclic flood, unless I had the trees reset each cycle, which I didn't want to do. Anyway, I think having the lightning in the background probably looks a bit better.

Inca boats carried from village storehouse by flood:
I actually did animate a boat to float in the flood, but the animation didn't play. Looking at scene.xml, I found that the library node for the boat didn't have any animation data. It seems that library objects can't be animated, and I don't have access to the boat's mesh, so this will have to wait.

Huge drains pouring water:
In one version of the track, I had 21 Aztec fountains at 2x scale lining the terrain wall, with plans to make them spout water for the flood. Unfortunately, even after placing two torches right beside each, they were hardly visible from the road. After this, I just decided to use the most conspicuous way possible to do the water, and made the entire outside ring of the arena a waterfall. Sadly, it's still hardly noticeable in the rain while driving.

[Anon]

Video showing the improvements (slightly laggy):

youtu.be/j2yI8iDOxH0

[vlj]

Btw there is open broadcaster service that may be used to record video of STK with hardware encoding support.
Unfortunatly it only works on Windows atm.

[Anon]

Thanks for the info, but I think the low framerate was more to do with everything I had open than anything else.

[samuncle]

Hello

Can you release the blend please ? and the new track ? I want to test it

[Anon]

You can download the latest version of the track itself here.

I've also uploaded the source files here. Provided that I haven't made any mistakes, they should be fully usable in Blender straight out of the box (zip?).

Be warned though, that this isn't really a finished version of the track. Instead it's the first version to have all of the new features fully implemented, so you might find things like palm trees or grass intersecting the jungle trees. I've tried to clean up most of the obvious problems, but the track still probably needs a bit more polish.

[Anon]

@samuncle: Can you provide some feedback on the latest version? I want for the next version to be as polished as possible (basically finalized, minus the tornado), so I'm trying to write a comprehensive list of all problems.

[Anon]

Some WIP shots:

Tree roots, planned to be under every tree)

The new jungle

As you can see, I'm changed my mind about finalising the track. I'm still tweaking problematic areas from the previous version, but my main focus is overhauling the exterior to try and bring it on par with the standards for next-gen tracks.

[Arthur]

So you went back to your roots?

Very nice so far, from what I've seen. If I'm to pick on something: the lines of grass below the bridge in the first screenshot doesn't look very good from this angle; maybe organizing them into a "grass field" would look better. I'm aware that there are performance issues to consider when trying to make visible grass, but I'd prefer cutting (out) the grass, and possibly add a couple more plants instead of having random stripes of grass.

I'm really looking forward to try this arena, and it seems like you're having fun making it as well which is a double win.

[charlie]

It looks fantastic. The worst aspect is probably the grass, but (if I'm not mistaken) that's produced by the engine?

Surely there is a better way to do grass than those long texture strips. They look terrible from above.

[Anon]

The grass does look pretty bad from this angle, but it's almost impossible to even see its interior ingame (the outside ring is higher-poly). The player would have to somehow get catapulted into the air, otherwise there's always going to be something blocking them from seeing the lopoly grass. Also, it looks fine from lower angles, since there's more overlap between the lines.