Minigolf for STK 2.0

[Polo10]

Hello everybody,
It's a message for rubberduck.
Knowing that you are one of the creators of the Minigolf track, and knowing that we are in the period of preparation of the 2.0 version of STK, do you have as project to remake it for the 2.0 version?

Have a nice day !

[rubberduck]

I haven't planned it yet, but maybe a bit later.

Which are the things that should be improved the most, at least I think the cannon is tricky and can be changed / improved, but also some other places. What do you think?

[SvenAndreasBelting]

Would definitely be very nice to give this track a little revamp for 2.0!
Here are my ideas and opinions

Graphics:
The graphics of the track obviously have fallen a bit behind as time goes on it still looks kinda cute but doesn't hold up compared to the newer tracks of the game.

The track is a bit to low poly imo especially on the roads, it looks a bit dull but also makes driving a bit hard in some places as you will lose grip a lot of the time.

Some models like the trees and other plants are outdated.

The textures are generally nice ones but the texturing is very basic and has too many hard cuts next to the road. Some nicer transitions would really help.


Gameplay:
I personally really enjoy racing on this track, as it's one of the more challenging STK track and needs precise driving.

I think the biggest problem of the track is that it's a bit to hard to play for a lot of new and intermediate players.
I really like the concept of easy to learn but hard to master, if it would be possible to make the track a bit easier for newbies without taking away the challenge for veteran players, this track could really shine imo.

As said above a bit smoother road were your not starting to jump around in unintended ways, should already really help to improve the driving.

The goofball cannon is nice imo the only thing I would do about is to make it more about good timing rather than luck.
Making it visible earlier, and giving a bit more space to dodge the ball could help.

Minigolf as a theme would also be a great possibility to add a bit more action like jumps anti-gravity (a looping maybe) and whatever else comes to mind, if needed the track could be expanded a bit since it's rather short at the moment.

[rubberduck]

you're right, there are many things which can be improved, I just haven't looked so much into it, but a looping is coming for sure.
I could also start soon, maybe in the next days, but with some breaks

[rubberduck]

I already started working on it, and I attached a first version of the track, it doesn't contain the textures though, but you can make a copy of the original track and just replace the other parts.
Also the white parts have no texture assigned yet, but the material, which I added when porting the track to a newer blender version

[rubberduck]

another update, what do you think so far?

[SvenAndreasBelting]

I really really like it!

I also miss the parts that are not there anymore
But I think that's fine, it's just that I liked the track before a lot already

- The split paths after the pipe tunnel are amazing I love them. Only problem is that it's possible to end up on top of the pipe, not sure if adding a third paths is the best solution, maybe there are other ones that work well.

- The looping is cool but it doesn't quite give the rush I would expect it to. Maybe tweaking the shape (making it a bit smaller?) could do something, but I believe it's rather because the camera always stays in the same rotation and position right behind the kart.

The camera has actually a very very big influence on how a racing game feels. Since there is no way in stk to manipulate the camera rotation or position, on specific parts of the track it might be hard to tweak this.

- overall I really enjoy the new design elements, have you more planes ideas of things you want to add?

[rubberduck]

my focus is on testing and tweaking the drivability / the feel more now. Small changes are no problem too, especially if you and other people find things that could be improved or made differently.
As an example the small jump right before the cannon is something I tried to change, because I noticed that in that small U shaped I didn't get the ai to drive well. Or is the narrow curve in itself the problem, something that ai can't handle at this stage? On the other side I liked that part somehow.

On the other side my first tries on that jump were bad too, either they were endless trying to get over that gap, when for example a kart gets slowed right before, or I had a zipper too strong so they crashed right into the wall

[Polo10]

Hello rubber,
I would have so many things to say and to want.

But I'm completely crazy because it would be a lot of work and I don't have the time or the technique and experience to try it myself.

I think the looping is a good idea and I agree with Sven's first post in this thread.

An extension of the runway would be cool

New areas would be nice too like the looping one.

I am a fan of alternative hidden paths.

And I think this track lends itself well to that.

If you can make one that would be great.

It would be hard to master and in shortcut form.

And if you ever want to, you can make more but not as a shortcut.

That's it.

Have a nice day !

[rubberduck]

ok, I didn't change too much right now, I made the looping a bit smaller, also worked a bit more on the newer area.
Also right now there are even 2 such shortcuts, one is the looping (where you can jump over, could also a bit too easy right now, at least when you slow down before), and then in the newer part, I made some sort of shortcut, which is a bit like a stunt to get it right.

Both alternative paths / shortcuts are experimental right now and could be changed if you don't like them, or when they are too easy, especially the looping jump, where I could just make the side wall less like a ramp usable

[tempAnon093]

Sorry for off-topic, but I didn't think it needs a separate thread: Is there a reason your Antediluvian Palace track was never added to the core game or add-ons? Someone just made a video of them playing it and suggesting it should be added, and I agree!

[QwertyChouskie]

ok, I didn't change too much right now, I made the looping a bit smaller, also worked a bit more on the newer area.
Also right now there are even 2 such shortcuts, one is the looping (where you can jump over, could also a bit too easy right now, at least when you slow down before), and then in the newer part, I made some sort of shortcut, which is a bit like a stunt to get it right.

Both alternative paths / shortcuts are experimental right now and could be changed if you don't like them, or when they are too easy, especially the looping jump, where I could just make the side wall less like a ramp usable

Cool to see this track given some love! One thing I'd recommend is making the road higher-poly, right now it's noticeably low in many area, which affects both looks and how smooth the kart drives. In the past, polys had to be kept relatively low to keep STK running smoothly on low-powered systems, but nowadays between STK optimizations and just systems being more powerful in general, it's not really needed.

[rubberduck]

I already started working on adding more details, with more polys. There are still more places to rework though.
This time I kept the new added files in one package, where you need to replace these files with the old, making a copy of the original first.

I will soon start to upload the whole track on my web space, mainly because of file size limits, where some more textures are included now

[tempAnon093]

Those screenshots are looking great! I'll have a test run when I get a chance.

[kimden]

It's always good to see improvements. I like how it looks. I have a few points though.

- The tunnel looks interesting but a bit empty, do you plan to texture it more fancily / add some more (dangerous or just contributing to detail/beauty fo the track) objects? Probably the loop could also benefit from some objects in there
- The track became much more straight, which means it will be pidgin only quite a bit more straightforward to play. Considering that there are quite few tracks among the 21 standard that require something other than going straight and skidding in 540° turns like Volcan and Gran Paradiso Islands some precision when driving, I regret that the combination of chicane+golfball will be removed. I'm sure I'm not the only one who liked the chicane. Maybe there could be some hard turns in the tunnel then if the chicane is removed?
- To add to the previous point, less sharp turns just means that until 2.0 (where it's supposed to be rebalanced? hopefully?), light karts will be abolished even more. Some people even played the current Minigolf with heavy karts. Of course, it's not the fault of the track, rather of the game balance, but then the track will stop being a bit special, let's say.
- Are you planning to keep the current cut in turn 2 from the top of the track to the bridge? I would personally prefer to leave it as it is (it's hard enough), but just in case you want to fix it, you would need a checkline and/or some visible indication (object) that the cut was removed for players who will try to take it? not sure
- Checklines are probably not finished yet but there are too few of them right now I guess, especially considering that there is a loop that goes up, which may add a few exploits if it's not properly surrounded by walls/etc. Also the new part has few checklines if i remember correctly

I appreciate your work though and it's of course up to you how to change the track, it already looks nice. Cheers

[eltomito]

It looks great!

But I also miss the exasperating turn where you actually have to break and slow down. It's one of the very few places in STK where it makes sense to use the break and where you have to really slow down. I'd love the sharp turn section to stay in this track.

[rubberduck]

I worked a bit more on the track, I will send a download link soon, but right now I don't have the best internet at my place, so I have some more screenshots

I changed the tunnel segment now, but also experimented with the vegetation, even using different plants in different locations, like they were planted there by someone and not wild plants growing there, a bit like a park or something, even these trees from the zengarden are there right now,

[SvenAndreasBelting]

I agree with Kimden that the gameplay overall isn't as interesting as the old version of the track anymore.
The additions to the track are good overall (I especially like the split path after the tunnel) but after a bit more testing I think that a lot of the nice gameplay elements got lost, and the track doesn't feel as special and exiting anymore.

But I also miss the exasperating turn where you actually have to break and slow down. It's one of the very few places in STK where it makes sense to use the break and where you have to really slow down. I'd love the sharp turn section to stay in this track.

I absolutlely agree with that, maybe tweaking this area a bit would help for newbies tho. An idea could be to add a slwodown between the road and the walls in these turns, instead of just crashing into walls, this way it would be less frustrating.

I changed the tunnel segment now, but also experimented with the vegetation, even using different plants in different locations, like they were planted there by someone and not wild plants growing there, a bit like a park or something, even these trees from the zengarden are there right now,

I like the idea of having different kinds of vegetation, but in my experience you have to be a bit careful with that, because it can look very thrown together easly.

I really don't like the look of the tropical trees and plants, they just don't fit into the style of the track at all imo

The trees from Zengarden could use some improvements, they look a bit outdated.

I made 3 new trees for Alpine Valley, I'm not sure how well they would fit into the track but here they are in case you want to use them: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1v1zh1ytslb0k ... s.zip?dl=0

[rubberduck]

I checked the trees, they are cool and could be used too.

To keep it simple though right now, I have used only the already existing pine trees, and removed the others, you are right - they don't really fit

I changed the jump part to that u segment, how it was before

https://sebastianplaten.lima-city.de/STK/minigolf_newgen_v5.zip

What do you think? Parts which are good or can still be improved / changed?

Important and first: the driving experience (how boring or interesting), difficulty, but also ai driving behaviour

and second: the visuals, track details and textures, which areas or textures you like and which could be updated ?

[SvenAndreasBelting]

Lovely changes!

I really like the gameplay now,, to me it feels as fast as the old version with some nice additions.

Still have some notes and suggestions:


Gameplay


1. - there are still some parts of the road that need some smoothing, (you might be aware of them but I will post them anyway in case you missed some of them):

- there is a weird bump right in front the looping which makes you loose grip, not sure if this is intentional but I don't like it

- the left turn after the looping is a bit bumpy, additionally I've been thinking if it would be a good idea to give a little bit more space on the outside of this turn to make it a bit easier for newbies

- the end of the right path after the pipe tunnel also needs some smoothing

- the last jump before the finish (were you on the green minigolf texture again) could also be slighty smoother imo

- the first tunnel has some minor tire stuttering, the addition of one or two horizontal loopcuts might fix this, but it's only very minor anyway


2. I don't like the bananas in the looping, you see them very late due to the bended road. It's not that hard to avoid them but I imagine that they feel a bit too random. I would suggest to maybe add some nitros to the outside of the looping instead, this way players have a reason to risk leaving the middle of the looping.


3. You might also have to come up with a solution to to stop players from skipping the looping, I'm not sure how effective it is at the moment, but players will possibly find ways to skip it consitently.


4. I tried to test the balance o fthe 2 split paths after the pipe tunnel. In my testing it appears that the right paths is a bit faster by about 0.7 seconds. Not sure if other players come to the same results, if so it would be good to balance them a bit



Graphics

For the graphics pretty much all the things in my first post still stand.

I liked the overall art style of the track, but as said some better texture transistions, or models to hide them would be good.

Also overall more details of course:

- More and nicer plants
- maybe some more minigolf related assets too
- some of the low res textures should be improved
- nicer enviroment models


I think it will be easier to point out were graphics should be improved when the track is a little bit more advanced.

Overall really like were this is going so far!

[rubberduck]

I worked a bit more on the track, this time my focus was on the driving part and not so much visually, most of the changed I actually did today, I worked on a small godot game called GravvitY, for more I have a link here: https://forum.freegamedev.net/viewtopic ... 22&t=19451

But now back to STK, here is the current version
https://sebastianplaten.lima-city.de/ST ... gen_v6.zip

Next I will do the visual work. I also planned to begin blocking out the magma chamber arena soon, getting the rough shape and paths right. Until now I only have some Ideas in my head.

[rubberduck]

I slowly started working on the track again, even if it is not much yet, I want to share this. I reworked the texture a bit and added a transition

[eltomito]

I slowly started working on the track again, even if it is not much yet, I want to share this. I reworked the texture a bit and added a transition

Loox great!

[rubberduck]

I managed to get the track ready to >99,8 %

https://sebastianplaten.lima-city.de/ST ... gen_v7.zip

Now it is time to test it very good and to give final feedback, the next release could be the final version then.

[SvenAndreasBelting]

Nice looks way better than the old version of the track!
There are still a few things that need tweaking though.

The most important thing is the split path section after the pipe tunnel. This section looks really empty and could definitely get improved by adding some more details.
There are also some parts were the texture tiling clearly shows it would be nice if that could be hidden a bit better.

Another big problem of that section is that it is very hard to tell were the road ends and the off-road starts, some different texturing would really help.

The right of the 2 split paths also still doesn't feel smooth enough and needs a little bit of polishing.

The jump before the finish if you take the left split paths lands you in an uphill section which sometimes makes you lose a lot momentum. That feels extremely random and therefore really bad. Would be nice if that could be improved.

Imo the lights in the first tunnel and the torch after the pipe tunnel don't fit the "minigolf setting" very well, something a bit more modern should fit better, I think.

I liked the bridge after the first tunnel better when it made your kart jump, that also made the turn after the bridge a bit more difficult which I liked.

There is a small gap after the bridge which makes you see through the track in reverse.

In the sharp turn after the bridge the overhanging grass should be a bit closer to the rock, it's very easy to look through the grass into the sky and tress above right now.

Some of the old plants look ugly I would replace them with new ones.

The end cameras need to be redone or removed.