Constant replacing content!

[kmph]

I downloaded STK 0.9.1, the new and shiny.

I didnt even play any tracks yet. But what?

It seems you got rid of the best tracks!!

For example, where is Green Secret of Amazonia????

Now, its good to see STK in an active development, not stalled as many other FOSS games, but...

In general, I dont like such constant replacement of content, especially not in games.

Content is very important for a game. It is what the game consinsts of. It is what makes the game remembered. It is exaclty what is remembered. Pieces of content are exactly what players love in a game.

And then we see that what we liked the most and remembered the most is... deprecated, or gone.

Adding content is of course good. Polishing old content is good as well. Removing bad content, content that does not meet the current quality standards, is of course good as well.

But removing **good** content or **substituting** it with new content? Nay... this is not the way to go.

It is like, I dunno, rewriting whole chapters of a novel after it has been published.

It is spoiling own game.

Even League of Legends, which constantly rebalances champions, doesnt *remove* champions - they may rebalance them, but dont substitute wth new champs!

If you really want to redo everything, I think the correct way is to publish a sequel. Maybe HyperTuxKart?

(ofc I'm ranting about music here, but all of this applies to tracks as well)

[Auria]

This has been discussed on IRC, but for the record :

we have this issue coming up from time to time... bottom line of this is that what is a good track is fairly subjective. when we replace content, we believe the new version is better than the old one. other people may disagree, that's subjective. Oftentimes, with a little help especially, we can also add the older tracks on the addons website so they remain available as addons

STK is not finished and there are many tracks that look very dated graphically, or have gameplay issues, so definitely we will replace them

[Wuzzy]

kmph, you will be excited to hear that the Subsea track will be deleted in the next version as well, with no proper replacement, of course.
There will be another track added with a similar theme but the track itself will be pretty much different so its “just” a new track in my eyes.

Yes, I think “replacing” is the wrong word. You are removing a track and inserting another one at the same time. That alone is not replacing. I think the new track should be similar enough to be recognizable to count as a replacement. The most important part is where the street goes because that's what makes the track. But in reality, the track which is supposedly “replacing” the removed track is often very different from the old one.

If the Amazonian track would have gotten a facelift, but the track itself would basically the same in gameplay, I would not have a problem with that. That would also be a real replacement. This didn't happen.
I am also not against fixing bugs in old tracks, like poorly placed gift boxes, etc. I'm also perfectly fine with Cocoa Temple being added. But I don't see it as a proper replacement for the Amazonian Journey track, those tracks seem both very different.

I am not against all replacements/removals: Oliver's Math Class got a very good new update, the track changed a bit but it is still similar enough. Similar for the Around the Lighthouse track, basically the same track but with different/better looks. That's how a track replacement should look like IMO.

bottom line of this is that what is a good track is fairly subjective.

Does this mean you consider the old Amazonian track and the Subsea tracks to be bad?

Oftentimes, with a little help especially, we can also add the older tracks on the addons website so they remain available as addons

Yes, please. Or why not even give them a facelift as well?

[onpon4]

I'd just like to add something to what Auria said: if STK included a track that a lot of people like, but that same track gives newcomers a bad impression if it's the first track they play, then it definitely should not be included with STK. Remember, newcomers do not have nostalgia for old tracks, and if the first track they play turns out to be crap in their eyes, there's a good chance that they are going to assume that the rest of the game is crap and shut it off for good. Quality over quantity is very important with the base game.

Add-ons can be much more free-form in terms of what's available, because a newcomer isn't likely going to go through the trouble of downloading add-on tracks before even trying the default tracks, and when they find an add-on tack that's crap, they will blame the author of the track, not the game itself.

[Arthur]

Add-ons can be much more free-form in terms of what's available, because a newcomer isn't likely going to go through the trouble of downloading add-on tracks before even trying the default tracks, and when they find an add-on tack that's crap, they will blame the author of the track, not the game itself.

You nailed it. I'd like to add that to some degree we have to take what we get, so if we think a new track is better than an older one the older one might lose that competition. And yes, at least personally I think the current (0.9.1) Subsea track always had some major design issues, and I remember voicing them at the time. The artist had not really been in touch while creating it, and was not in the mood to redesign large parts of it after "throwing it over the wall" so to speak. However we deemed it an improvement overall, thus it became included. And now it's on its way out since we got something even better (your mileage may vary). It's a track-eats-track world out there.

[MTres19]

I agree with Arthur. The first thing a user will see is the graphics, not the gameplay of a track ("You only have one chance to make a first impression..."), although I admit that some tracks could be a bit more... interesting. (Las Dunas Stadium, for example, is just more exciting to drive than, say, Antediluvian Abyss.) But I don't see what's wrong with replacing tracks as long as the old ones are available as add-ons. And besides, there have to be some easy tracks.

As for facelifts, that would be fine, as Northern Resort proves. But I can't really see how some tracks, like Subsea, could have more good scenery added without major changes to the gameplay.

[kmph]

I agree that you guys do have a point.

But I can't help but notice the game of Wesnoth.

I don't follow Wesnoth too persistently, but I don't remember seeing something really removed from the main game*. And, while I don't know what happens there now, when I was checking it a few years ago, it seemed that it actually was actively developed and consistently improved.

Perhaps it is possible to improve a game without removing content?

* OK, I'll grant you that: I read, (but not experienced), that at some point they removed the possibilty of attacks whose range would span a few tiles.

[MTres19]

But the content isn't removed—it's moved to add-ons. However, maybe there could be something like a "Classic Tracks" section on the track selection screen, the way MarioKart has the Retro Grand Prix. I don't know how hard that would be to add.

[andrewj]

Perhaps it is possible to improve a game without removing content?

Not really.

If you want to make a high quality game, then sooner or later you need to remove or replace anything that is low quality.

[samuncle]

Hi I'm the lead artist of supertuxkart and responsible for the inclusion and removal of tracks.

We try to keep the game interesting and add regularly new content, which also require to remove things

1) we won't restrict ourselves on only updating tracks. It might happen for some of them like the math class
2) we might do what's called a remix. Sorry but cocoa temple is very close to Amazonian journey. The layout and environment is similar. In fact the track started like and updated version of the jungle
3) we also from time to time include a brand new track with an original layout like the upcoming antediluvian abyss

4) you are free to create and update tracks yourself and submit them to the addons. If they are good enough they will be included in the core game

5) we remove older track to increase the quality of the game and reduce the maintenance of them.