Redlight City (Based on STK)

[linuxfanatic]

Is it ok if me and a few other members of GTRCars (http://gtrcars.net/forum/index.php) fork STK to create our own game? Don't worry, everyone will be given full credit

[Tuxfan]

STK is open source. You have the freedom to fork STK - as long as you do not violate the software licences and content licences.

In my opinion it is great that another open source racing game will be created.

If the fork is actually being carried out, try to do so in a conservative manner, Such that tracks, racing cars and other content remains exchangable between both projects.
I would love to see two open source communities working together.

[Akien]

I don't speak for the STK team, but indeed if you respect the terms of the GPLv3+ license for the code (see https://github.com/supertuxkart/stk-cod ... er/COPYING for a full description of the code licenses, and check also the corresponding info in the data repo if you want to reuse assets), you are free to fork STK. Now, reaching out to the development team is also a very good idea, as it could spawn some kind of cooperation I suppose.

Just out of curiosity, what are your plans for this new game based on STK?

[linuxfanatic]

I don't speak for the STK team, but indeed if you respect the terms of the GPLv3+ license for the code (see https://github.com/supertuxkart/stk-cod ... er/COPYING for a full description of the code licenses, and check also the corresponding info in the data repo if you want to reuse assets), you are free to fork STK. Now, reaching out to the development team is also a very good idea, as it could spawn some kind of cooperation I suppose.

Just out of curiosity, what are your plans for this new game based on STK?

Thanks. The new game is basically going to be an arcade racer with members of GTRCars and their dream cars as characters XD

[ArDanWol]

GTRCars looks like it will be a nice game! Looking forward to seeing it!

[hiker]

Hi,

Thanks. The new game is basically going to be an arcade racer with members of GTRCars and their dream cars as characters XD

While of course you can fork stk, tbh I am not a big fan of forks. Can I ask for the reasons you want to fork in the first place? Imho forks in the open source world lead to a lot of wasted developers time, and while I can see some justification or necessity in case of different project goal/focus or differences in the development team making a cooperation impossible - as far as I am aware of you have not tried to cooperate with us

• If you just want to have your own art (as in karts, characters, ...) - we are more than happy to support this on our addons server. I would _love_ to support addons packages: instead of installing X different karts, you could download a package that can include karts, tracks, music, skins. So if this is what you want, what about working with us to support this feature in stk, which will benefit the whole community instead of forking, which risks duplicating (and therefore wasted) time?
• If you want to change the physics - stk is already very configurable (you can have different stk_config.xml files, which store all physics parameters, and karts already can specify their own parameters). There is already work in progress (i.e. a patch that just needs some further improvement) to make karts easier to configure. If you want to improve the physics, depending on where you are going (and you mention arcade racer, so basically the same direction as stk), we would be interested in that, too
• If you want to add different game modes - we would love more game modes, too.

If there is anything else you want to do, I would suggest to talk to us (well, either here in the forum, or better on IRC) - it might just be that we can all work together instead of forking. Also, I don't know what background and experience you have - if you fork, and lose your momentum, your work is basically lost. If you contribute to stk instead, even if you stop due to overestimating your time or underestimating the effort required, your work will be useful for everyone else.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,
Joerg

[linuxfanatic]

Hi,

Thanks. The new game is basically going to be an arcade racer with members of GTRCars and their dream cars as characters XD

While of course you can fork stk, tbh I am not a big fan of forks. Can I ask for the reasons you want to fork in the first place? Imho forks in the open source world lead to a lot of wasted developers time, and while I can see some justification or necessity in case of different project goal/focus or differences in the development team making a cooperation impossible - as far as I am aware of you have not tried to cooperate with us

• If you just want to have your own art (as in karts, characters, ...) - we are more than happy to support this on our addons server. I would _love_ to support addons packages: instead of installing X different karts, you could download a package that can include karts, tracks, music, skins. So if this is what you want, what about working with us to support this feature in stk, which will benefit the whole community instead of forking, which risks duplicating (and therefore wasted) time?
• If you want to change the physics - stk is already very configurable (you can have different stk_config.xml files, which store all physics parameters, and karts already can specify their own parameters). There is already work in progress (i.e. a patch that just needs some further improvement) to make karts easier to configure. If you want to improve the physics, depending on where you are going (and you mention arcade racer, so basically the same direction as stk), we would be interested in that, too
• If you want to add different game modes - we would love more game modes, too.

If there is anything else you want to do, I would suggest to talk to us (well, either here in the forum, or better on IRC) - it might just be that we can all work together instead of forking. Also, I don't know what background and experience you have - if you fork, and lose your momentum, your work is basically lost. If you contribute to stk instead, even if you stop due to overestimating your time or underestimating the effort required, your work will be useful for everyone else.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,
Joerg

Hi! Thanks for your input.

The main reason we are forking is because we want to have a similar yet different game. We've been discussing on GTRCars and we've come to the conclusion that the game will be called Redlight City. It would be great if we could host our cars on the STK servers. We will also change the physics to make them a bit more realistic.

tbh, I don't think much time will be wasted because most of the work will be making the new cars.

Also, would it be possible to add a new map? And where are the textures for the nitrous, bananas and presents that move on the tracks?

[samuncle]

Hi linuxfanatic

I'm the lead artist of the project and here is my little contribution. As you probably know now, you can fork SuperTuxKart however I highly not recommend to do it (as the leader of the project hiker said). It spreads resources and man power (especially considering now we are lacking of artists).

SuperTuxKart's new engine is perfectly capable to run with a descent visual quality a "realistic" world but let me explain a bit more the work involved.
Without forking the current game you can already do a kart that looks like a car and a city with skyscrapers.
I suppose it's what you want to create since the game will be called redlight city).

Creating a track with the quality of Raven Bridge Mansion (one of track that is currently work in progress).

1) A next generation track can take up to 6 months of work from the initial idea to the final release
2) A next generation track needs roughly ~100 objects (and it will style looks a bit "empty"). If you take 5 hours to create one object (assuming you are very fast) it still requires ~2 months just for the objects
3) Creating racing circuits requires experience. Actually it's very hard to make a fun and enjoyable track (from the gameplay point of view).
4) Since you are going for realistic environment you can't really reuse the objects from SuperTuxKart , so a lot have to be done
5) Your first track will be as perfect as you might imagine (well just like anything you are starting. You need experience).
6) before creating next generation tracks like Cocoa temple, gran paradiso we had a lot of trial and errors with previous ones.

In fact before creating an epic dark track our mansion looked like that

I'm writing my suggestion in a separate post so it's more clear

[linuxfanatic]

Hi linuxfanatic

I'm the lead artist of the project and here is my little contribution. As you probably know now, you can fork SuperTuxKart however I highly not recommend to do it (as the leader of the project hiker said). It spreads resources and man power (especially considering now we are lacking of artists).

SuperTuxKart's new engine is perfectly capable to run with a descent visual quality a "realistic" world but let me explain a bit more the work involved.
Without forking the current game you can already do a kart that looks like a car and a city with skyscrapers.
I suppose it's what you want to create since the game will be called redlight city).

Creating a track with the quality of Raven Bridge Mansion (one of track that is currently work in progress).

mansion.jpg

1) A next generation track can take up to 6 months of work from the initial idea to the final release
2) A next generation track needs roughly ~100 objects (and it will style looks a bit "empty"). If you take 5 hours to create one object (assuming you are very fast) it still requires ~2 months just for the objects
3) Creating racing circuits requires experience. Actually it's very hard to make a fun and enjoyable track (from the gameplay point of view).
4) Since you are going for realistic environment you can't really reuse the objects from SuperTuxKart , so a lot have to be done
5) Your first track will be as perfect as you might imagine (well just like anything you are starting. You need experience).
6) before creating next generation tracks like Cocoa temple, gran paradiso we had a lot of trial and errors with previous ones.

In fact before creating an epic dark track our mansion looked like that

456456.jpg

I'm writing my suggestion in a separate post so it's more clear

Thanks. While I fully agree with what you said, we are looking to create a new game, not make a pack for the base game. I know I sound like a complete b*stard saying that, but for what we're going for, an expansion pack or a similar just won't work.

[Akien]

While I fully agree with what you said, we are looking to create a new game, not make a pack for the base game. I know I sound like a complete b*stard saying that, but for what we're going for, an expansion pack or a similar just won't work.

That actually depends on what the engine allows you to do. If STK allows for total conversion mods, you don't need to fork, only to create the said mod with all your custom content. However if the engine only allows for custom tracks and karts, but you would prefer to adapt all the physics, gameplay, change the UI and scoring system, etc., then you might need to fork the whole engine yes. Or if there is interest in the STK community, work with the devs to adds further modding possibilities to STK that you could use in your mod.

[samuncle]

So here is my suggestion

Since the release of the new engine and the fact that all tracks has to be upgraded/redone for new engine it was decided to create an universe inspired by earth for the game.
The map of the planet.

We aren't a RPG but we are building world with cities, countries, mountain ranges etc, so our artists can use it and our fans can extend it.

The great thing is, it's so vast you can almost build anything you want, there is almost a place for every crazy idea involving racing.
You want a futuristic city with skyscraper ? well you can choose Malao a "south east asia" city state with modern buildings and futuristic infrastructures.

You prefer the "north American desert", well there is Las Dunas our version of Las Vegas/Los angeles, with movie studios/casinos and golf. In fact someone is creating right now a custom track located in the Las Dunas Stadium.

As you can see there is a lot of content, your redlight city could perfectly be Malao, Las Dunas, or Silvia an "European city". If I missed your goal and instead you wanted to create a steampunk track, well there is Lochcester a London like city :P.

As you can see for almost every situation we have a place fitted. There is also existing companies and corporations, like Oceanic Airlines or Vaalbara (a networking company). For almost every companies a logo and fictional poster have been created.

There is also countries and governments, like the Val Verde (south america + central america), the Alpalayan empire (stretching from "india to europa"), and for those countries we also created flags and coat of arms (some are missing, we add them when it's needed).

The only limitation is your time and imagination . Also a lot of objects, textures, assets, effects are already created and tuned for this universe.

I would suggest to take one of the city in our universe (assuming your game location is a city) and create a track + a bunch of karts and release it in our official addon server so people can easily download them. If the track is good enough it could be included in SuperTuxKart and your objects (like lamp posts, newspaper box etc) are also welcome.

Yes you would divert a bit from your goal which was to create a realistic racing game but, if we take for example blur, I think it's a nice compromise. Yes it has realistic cars but the environment/physic is cartoon.

SuperTuxKart universe is a nice blend between reality and cartoon/fun environment. We are a bit more serious compared to Mario Kart and depending on the situation yes real cars can perfectly be included (in a city for instance) just like a tractor in a farm.

That would be a win win situation since you get an amazing 3D engine + all our tools/assets/universe/etc. If you are willing to use our universe I can help and guide you to create an amazing track (yes let's be realistic here, let's start with one track and one kart).

[samuncle]

I know I sound like a complete b*stard saying that, but for what we're going for, an expansion pack or a similar just won't work.

Nope you just sounds funny :P. As I said making a good looking map (by good looking I mean something that could be in a professional game), you will take ages.

Creating a custom track is easier and nothing prevent you once the custom track is ready to create your game. By starting with a custom track you can easily see all the work involved etc.

[linuxfanatic]

So here is my suggestion

Since the release of the new engine and the fact that all tracks has to be upgraded/redone for new engine it was decided to create an universe inspired by earth for the game.
The map of the planet.

KwGRkMK.jpg

We aren't a RPG but we are building world with cities, countries, mountain ranges etc, so our artists can use it and our fans can extend it.

The great thing is, it's so vast you can almost build anything you want, there is almost a place for every crazy idea involving racing.
You want a futuristic city with skyscraper ? well you can choose Malao a "south east asia" city state with modern buildings and futuristic infrastructures.

Poster_making_your_track.jpg

You prefer the "north American desert", well there is Las Dunas our version of Las Vegas/Los angeles, with movie studios/casinos and golf. In fact someone is creating right now a custom track located in the Las Dunas Stadium.

As you can see there is a lot of content, your redlight city could perfectly be Malao, Las Dunas, or Silvia an "European city". If I missed your goal and instead you wanted to create a steampunk track, well there is Lochcester a London like city :P.

As you can see for almost every situation we have a place fitted. There is also existing companies and corporations, like Oceanic Airlines or Vaalbara (a networking company). For almost every companies a logo and fictional poster have been created.

stkflag_oceanicAirlinesAD_a.png

There is also countries and governments, like the Val Verde (south america + central america), the Alpalayan empire (stretching from "india to europa"), and for those countries we also created flags and coat of arms (some are missing, we add them when it's needed).

valverde.jpg

The only limitation is your time and imagination . Also a lot of objects, textures, assets, effects are already created and tuned for this universe.

I would suggest to take one of the city in our universe (assuming your game location is a city) and create a track + a bunch of karts and release it in our official addon server so people can easily download them. If the track is good enough it could be included in SuperTuxKart and your objects (like lamp posts, newspaper box etc) are also welcome.

Yes you would divert a bit from your goal which was to create a realistic racing game but, if we take for example blur, I think it's a nice compromise. Yes it has realistic cars but the environment/physic is cartoon.

SuperTuxKart universe is a nice blend between reality and cartoon/fun environment. We are a bit more serious compared to Mario Kart and depending on the situation yes real cars can perfectly be included (in a city for instance) just like a tractor in a farm.

That would be a win win situation since you get an amazing 3D engine + all our tools/assets/universe/etc. If you are willing to use our universe I can help and guide you to create an amazing track (yes let's be realistic here, let's start with one track and one kart).

This is perfect! I have a few friends who will make karts, so they will take care of that. Does the map you showed come with 0.9? And yes, we will use real cars, starting with an ER34 Skyline sedan.

[samuncle]

@linuxfanatic can you go on IRC please ? in our official channel so I can explain a bit more in details . It's #stk on freenode.net. You can use a webclient if you don't have an IRC client

[linuxfanatic]

On IRC now.

[samuncle]

I post here since I can't write on your forum, my account is still not confirmed.

Okay so as I said on IRC, it's strongly recommended to not use real cars/real names since you can get in troubles due to copyright issues. That's why for SuperTuxKart we created this universe, to avoid such problem.

That doesn't means the game is less cool or less interesting. A lot of games do it for instance GTA.

My personal suggestion if you want to create something and have a chance of succeeding.

1) Create a track
2) Create one or two karts (in your case cars)
3) eventually release a GUI theme pack
4) eventually release a patch to change the physic of the game

By starting with 1 and 2 you don't loose your energy on stuff that's not important. Having a racing circuit and racing character is definitely the most important objective.

[Akien]

+1 for samuncle's suggestion. If there is still a need for a complete fork once you have created a track, some karts and maybe a GUI, then the work already done will work just as well in the forked engine, and you won't have to lose time keep a fork in sync with STK's development to gain bugfixes and new features. Start with a low objective (though even creating just one track will be quite an important work), and make it grow little by little.

[hiker]

Hi! Thanks for your input.

The main reason we are forking is because we want to have a similar yet different game. We've been discussing on GTRCars and we've come to the conclusion that the game will be called Redlight City. It would be great if we could host our cars on the STK servers. We will also change the physics to make them a bit more realistic.

Well, if you are not working with STK, we basically can't host your addons there: first of all, the servers are paid for by donations for SuperTuxKart, and not to help a different game. And I at least feel an obligation to use the donations the way they were intended to - to support STK. But besides this, if you change the physics in a way that is incompatible with ours, people will download karts in stk that then don't work as expected. So we would need to put more effort into managing two sets of addons, more work on the server and stk. We basically already don't have enough time to work on stk, so we won't spend our available time on work caused by a different game. Yes, if you would contribute ...

The other issue might be if you are using trademarked or copyrighted images/art of course, which we can't allow on our servers.

tbh, I don't think much time will be wasted because most of the work will be making the new cars.

Then I don't see a reason why we can't work together tbh. As I've said before, the physics are already quite configurable, more work on that is in progress, and if you actually modify code, you can easily make it configurable. And it might be nice if we could add a feature to make STK completely 'skinnable': not only gui, but different defaults for karts, ... So STK players could just download an Redligh City extension, and they could then play Redlight City with the same binary (and vice versa). That sounds like a much better idea.

If you start modifying code in your own fork, the two projects will drift apart. We can't consider what you are doing, and might break things for you, and vice versa -> wasted time

Cheers,
Joerg

[samuncle]

Some precisions:

1) Change the name of the project, if you search redlight city, the first thing you will find is this and that certainly cross the line with our policy of family friendliness.

2) ALL textures MUST have an open source license. It's not allowed to use random pictures from Google image or other sources. You MUST be sure to have the right to use them. Also you must have the right to use them commercial (Generally we use creative common) but creative common non commercial isn't allowed (except for the package for people who donated but it's a special case).
Note it's not only a requirement in SuperTuxKart's policy but also from Linux distribution. They won't allow a software with non open source license.
It's also the case for cars, using real brand isn't allowed.
For more information, see our article about licensing

3) As Hiker said we don't have enough man power for SuperTuxKart. It might sound a bit extreme but I think we should not add support for skins etc in stk now. Once your track and your karts will be finished and working (aka we have an usage) yes we might do something but not before having a real finished working case.

Changing the physic is hard and the current settings are gathered from hours of gameplay, tests, statistic analysis, feedback, etc. It's very hard to tweak those parameters and time consuming. This should come at the end once the track is finished (and trust me finishing a track is a lot of work).

[charlie]

I'm wondering if STK is the right fit for Redlight City. You may want to check out Stunt Rally which is based on VDrift, with both games featuring (or aiming at) realistic physics and car handling. Also Stunt Rally's forum is hosted on these boards too.

[andrewj]

"I'm gonna make my own STK game, with blackjack, and hookers!"

(Futurama quote)

[samuncle]

It depends on your goals especially visually versus physic

If you accept stk cartoon physic you get a modern highly powerful 3d game engine with all next generation technology such differed shadding real time and per pixel lighting ("you can put light as much as you want"), image based lighting and reflection (for all the shiny cars etc).

If you want potentially high quality visual I never worked with other engine but it seems stk is the best way currently to do it.
Other seems less impressive visually.

Now I also wanted to point making a kart game was never my dream. I prefer fps such as halo yet while working for stk I discovered it was very fun to do.
Sometimes you don't do exactly what's in your dreams and finally we made a space station in stk which looks very cool and has some halo reference in it.

I think you can perfectly piggyback to our project especially considering we desperately need more artist and extend our great universe. It is sufficiently open and vast for everyone who wish to create something involving racing.

Making high end track take really a lot of time (it's usually counted in months).
If you do tracks for stk you will get support and help from us and also a lot of the work is already done.
At the end when your tracks are finished you can still tweak the physic .

[linuxfanatic]

Guys, it's 10pm here in Australia, I'll post when it's morning, And if you can think of a title, please do so.