Cakes

[Alayan]

Hi all,

Some of you may recognize me since I already was around here.

As the topic title indicates ; I want to speak about cakes. These of STK.
This point was already made a few times, but as far as I know ; no action followed.

What is the effect of cakes ?
They are explosive weapons which can also be fired in reverse. They are extremely accurate, and very fast.
To compare ; the bowling ball go only straight ; so it needs some attention to fire it ; and you take the risk the other fire one at you. Nothing like that with cakes ; which tolerate small curves.
The speed of the cake also deny the possibility to react ; while the bowling balls (especially fired in reverse) give some chance to avoid it.

And the icing on the cake ( ) : one cake can touch several karts while exploding, if they are close enough. Especially effective at the start of a race.

How can someone protects itself against cakes ?
Bubblegum used as a shield is the only effective protection against it. While really helping ; the shield doesn't last long enough ; and isn't get so often. Also, the cakes do the most damage at the end of the race ; while it is only the 2 first third of the karts which can get it.
(The other way is "fire a cake on him before he fires one on you" which isn't really a protection...)

What is the likeliness to get a cake ? (And a bubblegum as we are at it ?)

{l Code}: {l Select All Code}

 <!-- cake
<first 5
w-multi="0" />
<top33 30/190
w-multi="10" /> [it works like the following : if the cake is selected ; the likeliness of getting 3 is of 10%, in this case]
<mid33 30/220
w-multi="20" />
<end33 30/210
w-multi="30" />
<last 30/290
w-multi="30" />
 <!-- bubble
<first 25/80
w-multi="0" />
<top33 30/190
w-multi=" 0" />
<mid33 30/220
w-multi=" 0" />
<end33 0
w-multi=" 0" />
<last 0
w-multi=" 0 " />

(data taken from the github repo)

So we have ~15% of cakes for everyone but the first. From these 15% ; the top 33 have 10% to get 3 ; the mid33 20% and the others 30%. For a random kart ; the likeliness of getting 3 cakes with a box is around 3%.
For bubble shield ; the first have ~30% to get it ; then top & mid 33 have around 15%.

So the fact that where the cakes do the more damage (the last positions) is where there is not even a bit of protection is clear.

Is it really a problem to be able to get 3 cakes ?
Definitely, yes. If you are not already convinced (playing enough to get them and use them ; or see them used against you ; is probably the most effective way to be convinced) ; I'll argue a little more.
What can you do of 3 cakes ?

• If they're a lot of opponents around you, you can touch 3 or 4 of them without much trouble. They'll all lose several seconds. They're probably already in the last places, this just go worse.
• If there is one opponent nearby ; even if he haves a shield, you can fire two times and easily touch him. You can keep the unused cake(s) for when you'll get near another opponent ; or when one will be close behind you.

So what to do to balance this ?
Changing the power of the cake itself, by slowing it or making it less accurate, may be a way.
This isn't the one I suggest however, which is to avoid any possibility to get 3 cakes at once ; and to reduce also the probability to get a cake for the 1st third of the karts.

I'll refer here to the post I did more than a year ago ; where I proposed a new table for items, with weight based on a 100 scale to make it way easier to understand : http://forum.freegamedev.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4875&p=50424#p50424.

Another possibility would be, in addition of avoiding 3 cakes, to not allow the throwing of cakes in reverse.

[Anon]

I think it's fine. Cakes are unbalanced and out of line with the other weapons when it comes to how powerful they are, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Variation is what makes the game fun. Otherwise, you might as well only have one item and make it illegal to pass other karts.

I guess it boils down to what type of game STK is supposed to be. If it's meant as a semi-realistic driving simulator where skill is the most important thing, then having a powerful and randomly spawning weapon like the cake would be a problem. But in a fun, arcade-y experience, having a a little bit of chaos isn't a bad thing.

Just my opinion.

[Alayan]

For realistic play, there is trial time mode allow more than trial, with opponents it also allows to race without items, which is a truly different experience. So, if that would be my goal, I would be already satisfied. But it's not !
I think your use of the "it's a fun game, not a realistic one" argument is not good.
Basically, you say "unbalance of items is fun, because it provides variety and that's fun".
My point is, the issue isn't that cake is a better object than others. If that would be that, I would just suggest to change heavily its accuracy/speed. Having all objects equally good isn't possible and isn't what we should aim for.
The issue, imo, is that cakes do more and more damage the worst is your position. The fun kart game usually provide better items when the ranking is worst to help catch the gap with these in better position. Here ; we provide better items when the ranking is worst, but only to make these just around you in a worse position !
I'm an experienced player so I encounter the issue differently, but do you think the begginer which in a race is 10th of 12 will find it fun to get cakes and cakes in his kart, without getting anything better in items that cakes to do the same to the 9th or the 11th ? I don't think this contributes to make the game fun, but frustrating.

As for the three cakes ; well that is somehow similar to what the 3 para was. It was around in the game during quite a good bunch of time, but was ultimately deleted because it just wasn't fun to be slowed down <it ends> slowed down more <it ends> slowed down even more.

[Anon]

So there's an effect where the people in the last few places can't catch up because they constantly drag each other down with cakes? I honestly haven't played enough recently to notice this, but if it's true, then I agree that it should probably be fixed.

Anecdotally though, I feel like I've gotten the most cakes when in second and third place and received zippers more when in slower positions.

[Alayan]

So there's an effect where the people in the last few places can't catch up because they constantly drag each other down with cakes?

That's exactly that.
Dragging each other down happens also in mid and first places ; but less since they are given less multi-cakes and some bubble to protect themselves.

As for the probabilities ; you can take a look here : https://github.com/supertuxkart/stk-code/blob/master/data/powerup.xml
Sadly it isn't very clear because it is "value divided by the sum of the values on all the line" to get the probability.
That's part of why I suggested values with a total which do always 100 in the post linked previously.

But if you go through, you'll see that except for the very last position, zipper have the same probability than cake. IMO the last few places should get more zippers than they do atm. Maybe the lack of another "good" item too.

EDIT : To any project manager (hiker, samuncle, Auria, is there a new one ? ) : I remember having suggested one day to have more precision in the powerup.xml with top25 middletop25 middleend25 end25 instead of top33/middle33/end33 ; and to get something like three different table ; so that races with 6 karts ; 12 or 20 all use defaults powerup probability adapted to them.
As far as I remember the idea wasn't rejected. I took a look on the github repo and the needed changes to the code seems not to high. So if this is welcome in STK ; I'll work on it to change the code and do the tests to get pretty good defaults.
EDIT2 : Going to do a new topic

[Arthur]

Yeah, I know we have considered removing 3 cakes altogether. I think that would be a reasonable solution. When it comes to changing probability of cakes for the leading karts, I am not so sure. Often, the leading karts have more distance between them, so the probability to hit several karts with one is not as large anyway. More opinions on this is always welcome of course.

[samuncle]

Honestly I don't feel that the game is unbalanced. It's an arcade racing game so it's nice sometimes to trow some cakes against the opponents.

If we reduce the power of cakes another weapon will be the most powerful weapon. It's difficult to find the right balance.

IMHO it's perfect as it is now. I don't feel that's unbalanced.

[eltomito]

I support 3 cake boxes. I would hate to never feel the joy of getting three cakes at once and feeling like Rambo again!
Sure, sometimes others get them, too, and then I get caked pretty heavily - especially when there's 8 or more karts - but that's a part of the game, I think.

[Alayan]

The game isn't terribly unbalanced obviously. That's playable and enjoyable.
But I stick to my point the actual balance is not the most enjoyable, both for a good player and for a less good one.

Some playtesting with several players on several tracks, with some data collection, and with both the current weights and new test ones, may be a way to get both impressions from players, and some objective data (if the difference in time between the first and the last (excepting maybe a bugged Adiumy kart) is significantly reduced, e.g., may we say that it's closer to the fun kart spirit with the places more likely to change ?)

The point about being able to just throw 3 cakes to destroy everything around probably needed to be made by someone... Well, that's a pity there is no way to have battle with AI. Between swapper, 1 cake ; 1 or 3 bowling ball, basket ball, I think than in a 3 lap race it's enough to destroy enough opponents to have fun.
If we had a kind of super item that would fire lasers on all the opponents nearby during 10 seconds, it would be also fun to fire with it, but frustrating to be destroyed 3 times in a row by it, and removing it/making it less powerful wouldn't be something to not think about because it's an arcade game !
(When I was still a kid, I had a race game where there was an arcade mode with several kinds of cars, with one being cars with weapon. I always played with that, with the great fun of sending a missile to the car behind me. However, the game actually required some skill in acceleration, curve & all to really master it. I learned - nearly - everything about car games with it. So I really don't think that such notions should be always opposed.)

Btw ; the suggested change is to the default, but the player can always change the xml file to get something which he prefers. We may even think to provide several pre-made values depending of playstyles, that the player just would have to change ?

[samuncle]

Hi
Some clarifications

0) A game like stk, mk, etc don't have to be not frustrating. It's what's make them fun. Yes sometime you are destroyed by 3 cakes and just after that you can be in the first place again.
In stk balanced mean you have an equal chance to finish in the first place than everybody else. I think we are pretty good at that.
1) You only take into account the probability to get 3 cakes. But actually using 3 cakes isn't as easy as you might think
-> You have to be careful to not pick a new item box
-> You might launch its against a wall or an arch
-> You might just get caught by something else
So 3 cakes isn't equal to 3 karts being destroyed. In a real race it's not that often
2) If we remove the 3 cakes there will be another weapon that will be "overpowerfull". The current values don't come from a magic hat. We have done several statistical test to find them. Changing one value isn't that easy
3) Sometime what you think is the best isn't actually the best. For instance I'm sure if the majority of player can give their opinion about the blue shell, the blue shell will be removed. But it's what's make the spirit of an aracade racing game

4) I personally LOVE to get 3 cakes when I'm at the last position to give me a chance to come back

[Totoplus62]

Another possibility would be [...] to not allow the throwing of cakes in reverse.

I really think this is a good solution, in my opinion the cakes you throw in reverse should become mines (A kind of gum on the ground that explodes)
If you look at all the weapons, for some of them, there are two different ways to use the weapon.

But l also agree with samuncle when he says

I personally LOVE to get 3 cakes when I'm at the last position to give me a chance to come back

The right solution (IMO) is just to change the way you can use the cake when you throw it in reverse.

[claymore]

I've been saying pretty much exactly what Alayan was saying, but nobody took much interest when I said it. Preventing cakes from being fired in reverse and only being able to collect one in a box could be a good first step towards balancing them. It's not much fun being continually blasted by a weapon that you can't realistically anticipate or defend against, and that comes from a player who's ahead.

[Tiger]

It's not much fun being continually blasted by a weapon that you can't realistically anticipate or defend against, and that comes from a player who's ahead.

Exactly my opinion. It's pretty annoying when you are trying to record a demo video.

[Tuxfan]

One way to reduce the power of cakes without interfering too much, is to reduce the cake's impact.
A cake should stall the targeted player 40% less, than a bowling ball.
It just does not feel right, to carefully aim at a player with a bowling ball and know that the same impact could be achieved with a cake without the need for careful aiming.

[samuncle]

Again 3 cakes isn't equal to 3 kart destroyed. There is a lot of stuff that can happen.

-> You have to be careful to not pick a new item box
-> You might launch its against a wall or an arch
-> You might just get caught by something else

Exactly my opinion. It's pretty annoying when you are trying to record a demo video.

Well it might happen ^^. If you are first and then you loose the race because there is a basket ball you will complain too ^^.
Again yes it's frustrating but it's part of the gameplay.
Exactly like sometime in mk with blue/red shell

[BioHazardX]

The only thing that I don't like about cakes is that you can throw them backwards.
IMHO, collecting 3 cakes are ok.

[Totoplus62]

+1
This is the only reason i wanted them to become mines when you throw them backwards.

[Akien]

I like the idea of having them become mines when thrown backwards, it's a good compromise.

[Alayan]

0) A game like stk, mk, etc don't have to be not frustrating. It's what's make them fun. Yes sometime you are destroyed by 3 cakes and just after that you can be in the first place again.
In stk balanced mean you have an equal chance to finish in the first place than everybody else. I think we are pretty good at that.

At the start of the race, taking apart Adiumy which is a bad kart, I guess that yes rules are equal for all and the chances to finish in the first place are roughly equal.
However, I strongly disagree that after 1 or 2 laps, the chances are roughly equal. That would'nt be wishable anyway, but from my experience as soon as there is a gap of several seconds between 2 karts, it tends to grow more and more.
I'm going to do retrieve some data about that, I think that it will be interesting (no matter what is done with cakes)

1) You only take into account the probability to get 3 cakes. But actually using 3 cakes isn't as easy as you might think
-> You have to be careful to not pick a new item box
-> You might launch its against a wall or an arch
-> You might just get caught by something else
So 3 cakes isn't equal to 3 karts being destroyed. In a real race it's not that often

Yes I agree that 3 cakes is only rarely equal to 3 karts destroyed. At the start of the race it may go up to 5-6, but quickly it'll be more 1 nearly guaranteed, 2 pretty often and 3 rarely.
However, that do not mean it isn't too powerful.
To have good chances for these behind to catch up, you need to have not too much time between karts ; however the cake acts as a counter-power which tends to disperse the groups of karts too close of the others. When a 3 cakes happen in such a group, it will be dismantled in a blink.

(Also this point seems to contradict a little bit your point 4, no ?)

2) If we remove the 3 cakes there will be another weapon that will be "overpowerfull". The current values don't come from a magic hat. We have done several statistical test to find them. Changing one value isn't that easy

I strongly disagree with your premise of another weapon being OP if something is done for cakes. The situation with items is totally different from a metagame of numerous units keeping each other in check, which is where the "ban the most powerful" is stupid. Plus, the suggestion is definitely not motivated by the idea that cakes are "so much better" than other, but by the idea that "their effect has a bad influence on both the fun and the equity".

3) Sometime what you think is the best isn't actually the best. For instance I'm sure if the majority of player can give their opinion about the blue shell, the blue shell will be removed. But it's what's make the spirit of an aracade racing game

Well, that's an opinion with which one can agree or disagree. It's not an absolute truth. If I take the car game I talked about previously, there was nothing close to MK's blue shell and still it was definitely in arcade's spirit.

4) I personally LOVE to get 3 cakes when I'm at the last position to give me a chance to come back

I don't know with how many karts you play, but I never ever had the feeling, while being in the last karts (I often play with 20, sometimes with 12), that the 3 cakes will allow me to come back (sounds like if you got bill ball in MK). If I'm really the last, I prefer 3 zippers which allow me to be faster and reduce the gap with every other kart (well given I don't eat a cake or bowling ball). Actually, that doesn't mean I feel the 3 cakes aren't good... I wouldn't have made this topic otherwise. When I get the 3 cakes, that's a perfect occasion to "clean" around me. I can destroy the kart behind, and the kart ahead. So they won't be able to throw anything at me and I can for a part of the lap play like in time trial.


That said,

It seems the idea of making cakes mines when throw in backward, or not even being able to throw them in backward, has some success.
What's your stance on that samuncle ?
EDIT : Added a poll at the beginning of the topic. Two choices available, so you can support both your main idea and a fallback one (or two you would like done at the same time).

[Tiger]

At the start of the race... I guess that yes rules are equal for all and the chances to finish in the first place are roughly equal.

[/quote]

I see that in a completely different way.

When I play (and I'm Not a bad driver with an old PC), I see the kart of the player with a significant disadvantage from the start compared to all the rest of the karts. The difference of speed between the player's kart and the game's karts are incredibly unfair. In soome tracks, it's almost impossible to win. The cakes in a wrong moment makes the history even worse. In my opinion, the player should have the right to get a cake every time some kart hit him. Got hit by a cake? You win a cake to throw, too.

Other point to consider: i know that's complex and demand extra work but, the game could make available the option to choose the kart to hit with the cakes. In my idea, we could have four options: 1. hit the first place; 2. hit the kart immediately in front; 3.hit the kart immediately behind. and ; 4.hit the guy who threw the cake on you (immediate counter-attack). Who agree?

An off-topic point but, very pertinent:
The player always start from the last position, and this is an undeniable disadvantage. So, why not including the option of making the race a qualifying race? The driver will play the next race according to his/her performance in the previous race. The player marks the option "qualifying" if he/she want to play the next race starting according a grid based on his/her result in the previous race.

Opinions?

[Alayan]

Player and AI karts have the same speeds. ._.
In difficulty SuperTux ; on STK 8.1 ; on a 10 laps race with 19 AI opponents ; I one time finished 2nd while starting 100 seconds after the other (that's around 2 laps behind the 1st AI kart) If player kart had significantly lower speed that would be totally impossible.

Winning a cake when someone throw it on you would create total disbalance since this would multiply their number by a terrific factor. EDIT : Reading again, I see that's only for the human player ; but well I don't see it as a good idea since AI & player should have the same speed... If you have differents speeds that's probably a kind of misconfiguration somewhere.
That idea with the four choices is also totally unbalanced. The actual cake, while very powerful, is still not "choose someone in the race and destroy him" which is what you suggest.

As for the qualifying thing, you may be better to open a new topic about that.

[Tiger]

Player and AI karts have the same speeds. ._.

Maybe but, the fact you start from the last place and a lot of cakes, balls, etc. make the game's karts have an advantage.

Winning a cake when someone throw it on you would create total disbalance since this would multiply their number by a terrific factor.

Not exactly, of course, since the probability is not that high and a limit of three times could be imposed. This would change nothing except the chances of the player.

That idea with the four choices is also totally unbalanced.

I can't see why and I totally disagree, of course. The chart before starting could have some options like inverted mode, that's already available. Why not? I don't see a reason other than technical complexity and extra work (if the team consider this feature unnecessary).