Poor game design

[ballsystemlord]

Opensuse 12.3, STK on fedora 0.7, fedora 17.
I decided to create a map for STK, and because I was using fedora's version
of STK I decided to get the latest before trying since the map file format may
have changed. I got the bz2 0.8 archive, built it (on opensuse,) and was upset about some of
the changes that have taken place. I'm not reporting this on your bug reports
because I don't know if these changes are intentional, or accidental, or something
in between.
The sharp turn key now called slide is not well suited to playing the maps. They
require sharp turns and the track tends to be way to skinny for large swooping
maneuvers. Further when you get to about a fortyfive degree turn you all the sudden
get a huge boost in speed which appears to be caused by an unwanted spring. This
tends to slam you into the wall you were just beginning to think you could avoid.
I've tried to adapt to this new configuration without success for over a week
(7 hours+).
The numpad which I used to play with a friend on is no longer recognized as having
separate keys from the home, up, down, etc. keys on my key board. It's not the num
lock; that's always turned on by me at boot.
"Climbing the walls" and or "Sudden perpendicular syndrome" has gone from a nuisance
to a night mare. When I touch the wall I expect to slow down a little and bounce and
or turn away from it. The new slide contro, however, halts all hopes of doing the
latter. This has led to a rash of PTSTKD (Post Traumatic SuperTuxKart Disorder,)
instead of the expected enjoyment in playing a (very) fun game. The AIs suffer too,
I clocked one as taking 31+ minutes to complete a four lap race (it took me
about 7 minutes).
The karts are also unbalenced, I'm talking physically, not that the've gone crackers.
This leads to an unfair advantage for karts such as Mozilla landing flat where as
others, such as Gooey, landing almost upsidedown. The AIs again suffer from this too,
and it causes many rescues.
I down loaded many of the addons and found that many of the tracks use springs to
speed you up so that it does not take to long to go around the track. This is bad
because if I get three springs from a box then what do I do with them? I'm already
going at three million kilometers per hour. Second, if I want to drive at a slower
speed and appreciate the scenery I can't because I'm too busy desperately trying
to get control of my kart that's on the ground only on ten percent of the track.
And last, but by no means least, is the new plunger in the face. Previously, it was
smaller and so you had at least a limited idea of where you were going, now you
don't. Also it moves. Though this might not seem a problem at first consider
the how perception works with the human eye. You don't have to trust me on this
one, go to your kitchen and pick up a cup and have someone, with out warning,
wave their hand in front of your face. Your eyes will temporarily follow the
motion. So, if the plunger starts moving and it's already extremely hard to tell
where you are going then you all the sudden become distracted by the plunger what
do you think becomes of your kart that's already going too fast because of the
over use of springs in the maps? I don't think taking advantage of the brain is fun,
or even challenging, it's mean.

[charlie]

Moving to the STK discussion forum.

[rubberduck]

The karts are also unbalenced, I'm talking physically, not that the've gone crackers.
This leads to an unfair advantage for karts such as Mozilla landing flat where as
others, such as Gooey, landing almost upsidedown. The AIs again suffer from this too,
and it causes many rescues.

some karts like gooey or mozilla ar very old, they should be improved, but often people, who wan't to do this don't have time for this

you must play it for a while, then it's funny

[Auria]

Hi,

yes some people have trouble with skidding. My suggestion is that you don't try to use it too much at first, use it in short bursts in sharp turns. It doesn't take much practice to get it. It's more challenging than sharp turn sure, but I don't think it's bad to offer some challenge. Just don't try to skid for long periods at first... and you can check our official youtube video, it features much skidding and shows it's really usable, if you take the time to learn to use it. Also unless you want to make highscores there is usually no hard need to use skidding anyway.

Regarding numpad keys, this is unfortunate but this happens inside Irrlicht (the engine we use) and is a bit outside of our control.

We are also aware thatcollisions with walls are far from ideal but this is extremely difficult to improve. This is always a work in progress

Also, addons are not official nor made by us, they can be submitted by anyone. Some of them might have design issues, but that's out of our control.

[bonifarz]

Personally, I really liked the sharp turn mechanics of 0.7, but the skidding system introduced in 0.8 adds so much more fun, especially when playing trial on maps that used to be rather dull and monotonic to drive in 0.7. To get an idea how useful skidding can be when executed well, you can take a look at the trial times topic (sig).
Concerning the collision rules for walls, the current solution is certainly not natural, but it really feels much better than the instant velocity drop we had in 0.7.
Mechanical differences of the karts always seemed marginal to me. The spinning behavior during long jumps seems a bit random at times, but I doubt it depends much on the kart type. If I understood that correctly, the only technical differences between the karts are the relative positions of the wheels. Masses or moments of inertia are probably all the same for now.

[hiker]

Hi,

thanks for the long feedback!

The sharp turn key now called slide is not well suited to playing the maps. They
require sharp turns and the track tends to be way to skinny for large swooping
maneuvers.

The mode advanced tracks do indeed have some sharp curves, and you have to brake in order to take them (while often in the past using sharp turn would help). For the new skidding you need to judge when to turn, and which curves are best suited for skidding. It certainly should not be used (mostly at least) on straights, but on most ~90 degree curves it should work well, when timed properly.

Further when you get to about a fortyfive degree turn you all the sudden
get a huge boost in speed which appears to be caused by an unwanted spring. This

No, you get this speedboost once you have skidded for a certain amount of time, look for the sparks that are suddenly shown. You can keep on skidding (and will even get a slightly longer bonus if you keep on skidding for a while). Note that you can still adjust the steering angle when skidding (thought much more limited than normal steering).

tends to slam you into the wall you were just beginning to think you could avoid.
I've tried to adapt to this new configuration without success for over a week
(7 hours+).

It might perhaps be worth to use a different key to 'unlearn' the old mechanism. As auria suggested, perhaps have a look at our official video to see where and how we are using it, and try to learn from that.

...

"Climbing the walls" and or "Sudden perpendicular syndrome" has gone from a nuisance
to a night mare. When I touch the wall I expect to slow down a little and bounce and
or turn away from it. The new slide contro, however, halts all hopes of doing the

I've recently done some work to makes kart less likely to start flying upon a collision with a wall. So that should improve in 0.8.1.

latter. This has led to a rash of PTSTKD (Post Traumatic SuperTuxKart Disorder,)

Gee, I think we urgently need a disclaimer for STK

instead of the expected enjoyment in playing a (very) fun game. The AIs suffer too,
I clocked one as taking 31+ minutes to complete a four lap race (it took me
about 7 minutes).

Which track was that? I know that some addon tracks have problems, but the included tracks should be fine (perhaps not best-of-the-world AI driving, but good enough). If you can post a screenshot of where the AI is having a problem I'll have a look at that.

The karts are also unbalenced, I'm talking physically, not that the've gone crackers.
This leads to an unfair advantage for karts such as Mozilla landing flat where as
others, such as Gooey, landing almost upsidedown. The AIs again suffer from this too,
and it causes many rescues.

That should be more or less accidental. The karts are identical, except for their shape (which of course makes a difference).

I down loaded many of the addons and found that many of the tracks use springs to
speed you up so that it does not take to long to go around the track. This is bad

Well, there is a reason why certain tracks are not our main tracks. I'd suggest to contact the authors of those tracks and ask them to improve this.

because if I get three springs from a box then what do I do with them? I'm already
going at three million kilometers per hour. Second, if I want to drive at a slower
speed and appreciate the scenery I can't because I'm too busy desperately trying

You are one of the few people complaining about karts being too slow, mostly it's the reverse What about playing on medium level AI? This will also make the karts somewhat slower.

to get control of my kart that's on the ground only on ten percent of the track.
And last, but by no means least, is the new plunger in the face. Previously, it was
smaller and so you had at least a limited idea of where you were going, now you

I don't think the size of the plunger has actually changed (though to be honest I didn't check our commit logs).

don't. Also it moves. Though this might not seem a problem at first consider
the how perception works with the human eye. You don't have to trust me on this
one, go to your kitchen and pick up a cup and have someone, with out warning,
wave their hand in front of your face. Your eyes will temporarily follow the
motion. So, if the plunger starts moving and it's already extremely hard to tell
where you are going then you all the sudden become distracted by the plunger what
do you think becomes of your kart that's already going too fast because of the
over use of springs in the maps? I don't think taking advantage of the brain is fun,
or even challenging, it's mean.

Again, you are the first one to have that problem. Mainly moving the plunger (*besides better visualising what is happening) gives you more of the screen to see earlier, so I think it actually helps. But on the other hand, yes - we expect that anyone getting a plunger for the first time will be distracted But after that I can't really see this being a problem.

Cheers,
Joerg

[ballsystemlord]

I was told by someone that I've posted to the wrong list... sorry, it was unintentional. The map that I clocked the AI taking 30+ minutes on was called "The Old Old Mine." I'll fetch you a screen shot if you tell me where to send it. It has a lot to do, like I've already mentioned, with the trouble with the karts hitting the wall and, therefore, going perpendicular to it. I relize that not many people complain about the problems I've brought up. I thought that it was probably due to the fact that most people down load the "stable version" from their package repositories. Thanks for the disclaimer, it makles a real difference *sniker*. I'll have a look at the utube video and try it again. No, I don't find it fun or funny to have an AI go right around a corner easy and I'm stuck 20 seconds behind slammed against a wall. So, if you fix the slam into wall problem I'll like the slide key much more. Yes the num pad problem bother me but if you want to leave it as a todo thing I'll understand.... I'm probably the only person in the world who uses it because no one else complains, right? Just my luck, every one else in the world uses a laptop exept me, and I have to be the one to use the numpad . About the plunger, yes, I suppose you could get used to it but I'll always say it's not nice; particuarilly for people who don't often play supertuxkart (and those that have never played at all.)

[Auria]

Hi,

I was told by someone that I've posted to the wrong list... sorry, it was unintentional. The map that I clocked the AI taking 30+ minutes on was called "The Old Old Mine." I'll fetch you a screen shot if you tell me where to send it.

you should be able to attach the screenshot directly to a forum post

[ballsystemlord]

We are also aware thatcollisions with walls are far from ideal but this is extremely difficult to improve. This is always a work in progress

O.k. you haveme curious, Why's it so difficult?

I forgot the pics today I'll post them next time I'm over.

You are one of the few people complaining about karts being too slow, mostly it's the reverse What about playing on medium level AI? This will also make the karts somewhat slower.

At first you had me confused, what makes him think that I like going fast?
I do play at the intermitent level. I don't like going "fast" I like going "FASTER" then the other karts. I like being second to leader, accellerating up to hime the kart behind me shoots and hits the leader as I pass him for first place! (Thank you puffy.)
I like getting three springs and all the green nitro on the tux tollway. Finding an open space, I use the springs while a at the same time hitting the nitro key. You would not believe the speed I can achieve! It's fun!

You are right about the kart and track design, many of them are great tracks/karts but they are poorly designed for STK 0.8. I shall atempt to contact their respective authers.

I also watch the video and learned much from it. I must confess, though, that the slide turn is less sharp then the regular turn.

The AIs are also far more intelegent then before. They exeed even my taste. No longer do they avoid bannanas and get nitro/presents but the also avoid goo and use the slide turn to increase there speed. If you have been getting complaints about their stupidity then know that they are as smart if not smarter then me.

[ballsystemlord]

Here's where they are getting stuck.
And here's a picture of a kart climbing the ceiling (He's just starting to reset.) You can just barly see him under the righ hand part of the spring.

[Auria]

Hi,

looking at the minimap, this doesn't look like the old mine track that we include by default in STK, is this an add-on? Add-ons can be of variable quality, it is possible that the addons has issues with the AI drivelines but this is mostly out of our control

[rubberduck]

yes, this is an addon,

http://stkaddons.net/tracks/old-mine--edit-

it also has the same minimap

[ballsystemlord]

was it ok, initially?

Yes (in the older version.)